Setting Standards in Dog Training and Animal Behaviour with Fiona Cooke of the ABTC

Fiona Cooke joins Zazie and Kristi to talk about the work of the only charity in the UK to support animal welfare in training and behaviour, the ABTC, and how everyone can help spread the word.

By Zazie Todd, PhD

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Listen to episode 63 of The Pawsitive Post in Conversation wherever you get your podcasts (Apple, Spotify) or below, watch on Youtube or below, or scroll down for the show notes and transcript.

Setting standards in dog training and animal behaviour

How can we set and maintain standards for dog training and animal behaviour? Zazie and Kristi are joined by Fiona Cooke, Chair of the Board of Trustees of the Animal Behaviour and Training Council to learn all about their important work in the UK, and what anyone can do if they want to make a difference.

We talked about:

•     What the ABTC does
•     Why it's so important to follow a compassionate, non-punitive approach in training and animal behaviour
•     The wide range of organizations who are part of the ABTC (and how they represent people who work with dogs, cats, horses, and exotics)
•     The benefits of being on the ABTC register for practitioners in the UK, and how the public can use it to find a good trainer or behaviourist
•     We get a sneak peek of what the ABTC is working on right now
•     The importance of collaboration and how people can increase awareness of the ABTC and support their work
•     We get Fiona's tips on what people can do to make a difference
•     And finally we find out what Fiona's been reading, which turns out to include an instruction booklet for building a wardrobe!

The books Fiona recommends are The Secret Hours by Mick Herron and also his Slough House series, of which the first is Slow Horses.

The Animal Behaviour and Training Council sets and maintains standards of knowledge and practical skills needed to be an animal trainer, training instructor or animal behaviour therapist and maintains the national Register of appropriately assessed practitioners.

ABTC members include major animal welfare charities, organisations concerned with human-animal interactions, educational institutions and membership organisations for practitioners. The Council represents the training and behaviour sector to the public and to governments.

Visit the ABTC website: https://abtc.org.uk/

Sponsor the ABTC: https://abtc.org.uk/sponsors/

Get ABTC merch: https://shop.abtc.org.uk/

Fiona Cooke is Chair of the ABTC Board of Trustees. She is Head of Specialist Services (vet, behaviour, training and research) at Woodgreen Pets Charity. Her PhD focused on the role of local government in the implementation and enforcement of animal welfare legislation. She is a lecturer in law and runs an animal behaviour company working with complex behavioural issues of dogs and cats. Fiona is a full member of the APBC and FABC as well as an ABTC registered CAB.

The conversation about science-based standards in dog training and animal behaviour

Zazie: Hello. We know it's really important to use the right training methods with dogs and cats because it works and it's better for their welfare and it's better for the human animal bond as well.

But what is the best way to encourage more people to do this?

We're going to talk today to Fiona Cooke, who is chair of the Board of Trustees of an amazing charity in the UK called the Animal Behaviour and Training Council.

And they are really making a huge, huge difference in this regard.

Welcome to the positive post in conversation. I am Zazie Todd. I'm joined as always by my friend and co host, Kristi Benson. And I don't know about you, Kristi, but I've been really looking forward to this conversation and I'm so excited for it.

Kristi: Yeah, me too. I, I, I'm excited. I think it's great to like hear about how we can help people, you know, like the people and it's sort of even like more layers, the people who help people who help dogs.

Zazie: Absolutely. So we've got Fiona Cooke with us today. Fiona is head of Specialist Services, Vet Behaviour Training and Research at Wood Green Pets Charity.

Her PhD focused on the role of local government in the implementation and enforcement of animal welfare legislation and she's Chair of the ABTC Board of Trustees. So thank you so much, first of all, for all the work that you do, Fiona, and also for joining us today.

Fiona: Thank you and thank you both so much for having me today. I'm really, really looking forward to talking about the work that ABTC does and all of the brilliant people that we work with as well.

So really excited to talk about that today.

Zazie: Yes, we can't wait to hear all about it. So, for those listeners who aren't in the UK or maybe don't know what the ABTC is, can you give us a snapshot of what they do?

Fiona: Absolutely. So the Animal Behaviour and Training Council is a charity and our aims are to promote humane practice in training and behavior, work with animals,

and to lobby in improvements in animal welfare related to those activities.

So as a charity ABTC is the only charity that's really dedicated to promoting the welfare of animals in training and behaviour,

specifically in that area. And we are evidence led and we work by the principles of respect and choice in training and behaviour work as well. So ABTC was formed in 2010,

so a while ago now, but by a group of people who thought in the same way and wanted to develop stance standards for the animal welfare, training and behavior sector so that people really could not only understand how to develop themselves, but as you were saying,

also to help people know where to go when they were struggling with their pet or an animal in terms of training and behavior.

So being able to really identify where we could support people who needed help.

And there's, as we know, there are a multitude of people working across the behavior and training space. And what we really wanted to do was make sure that people had support to do that in a way that is humane and fair and evidence led for the animal, but also helps people.

So being able to do that is so incredibly valuable, I think, and having this group that brings those experts together as well and have that voice together.

So we work to ensure that those standards are met for our animal trainers,

training instructors, behaviour technicians and clinical animal behaviorists as well,

and make sure that they undergo CPD every year and are able to support owners in the most current ethically led way as well.

Zazie: Awesome.

Kristi: Love it that there's strict guidelines about the methods that people use. And this is something that Zazie and I touch on a lot.

So I'm going to read this out specifically because I think it's important to get it right. It says the ABTC practitioners must use science led, compassionate and non punitive methods and equipment.

Training and behavior programs must not be based on positive punishment or the creation of anxiety or fear.

So the people who follow our show are going to be all in agreement with this approach. That's our audience,

but we'd like to talk about why it matters. So can you just speak a bit to why it's so important to have this?

Fiona: Absolutely. And it's fantastic that we are all in agreement on this and brilliant to have that voice. As I say, and as a group where we all believe how important this is.

And I think for me, I always think it's so important to challenge ourselves in terms of the way that we can share this, the way we talk about this, and important to really explore and be confident in talking about why this matters so much for animals.

So I'm really pleased to be able to speak about this and I Think for me,

when I think about training all behavior work,

that connection and the way that we share our lives and our time with animals and the importance of the relationship with people and their pets or the animals that they work with is so critical.

And it requires that evidence led approach that really means that we know what the right thing to do is, both ethically and fundamentally.

We believe that causing animals fear or pain is just not the right thing to do ethically in order to motivate them to carry out our desired behaviors that we would like to see from them or like them to display.

But also when we know that there are humane methods available that produce better long term results.

So both in terms of setting up for success, but also the right thing to do that is based on science and based on what we know.

So importantly, we really want to create those conditions and support people in creating conditions that set up animals and people for success.

Because ultimately that's where we're all wanting to do that, but to do it well and to do it positively.

And so using those reward based evidence led approaches that lead to those long term effective outcomes in training and behavior work with animals is so important to how we engage, what we think about, how we plan in terms of engaging with animals.

And we want those positive outcomes for that, that relationship.

But also I think it's absolutely critical that we continue to ensure that when we talk about this,

we really put the animal at the heart of decision making around what we can and can't do,

but do that in a way that supports people who aren't necessarily trainers and behaviorists, but want the best for their animal and ensuring that we're able to support that both as pets, but also animals that might be worked with in different contexts as well, to give them that positive experience and ability to succeed as well in a positive way and enjoy learning effectively,

really enjoy that opportunity.

Zazie: I think that's so important.

And the other thing is that we're not just talking about dogs today, of course.

So what kinds of organizations are members of the ABTC?

Fiona: Well, we're incredibly fortunate to have a real breadth of of members at the ABTC.

So we include major animal welfare charities, organisations who are concerned with human animal interactions, educational institutions and membership organizations for practitioners in animal behaviour and welfare. So our practitioners work across such a vast array of animals.

So they dogs and cats. Absolutely.

Small pets, lots of variety of small pets, animals who would be considered exotics, parrots, but also with zoo animals as well, and equines, including donkeys, who I have to mention,

who are great to include in there as well. But we have a really wide and varied base of expertise within the ABTC and allowing us to engage on in different ways as well, with different species and dependent on how that works for people.

So, as I say, we have such a variety of trainers, instructors and behaviorists as well, across that space who have different expertise but are able to bring that positive engagement with the animal of whatever species.

Kristi: So, for practitioners who are in the UK, what are the benefits of being on the register?

Fiona: I think that's a really important question for us to examine, because there's the benefits directly to practitioners in terms of the way that they're recognized, all of the hard work that goes into becoming a registered practitioner,

it's so valuable and it's so important that people are recognised for the work that they've put in to becoming qualified in this way and becoming recognised and going through assessments, we know that's hard, it's challenging and it can be a bit intimidating or worrying, and it absolutely shouldn't be, because everyone wants you to succeed in this space.

But they've been assessed for knowledge, understanding and practical skills in the roles that they're registered for.

So that means that owners, guardians, carers, those who are responsible for animals, know exactly where to go to find a practitioner.

And those who are on ABT on the ABTC Register can therefore be found through our list, on the. On the website. On the ABTC website.

And that's really important because people are referred there by other professionals, by other support to be able to find a practitioner.

But also what is so important is that we know that the public are accessing people who have. Those who have. Have worked that hard to become practitioners. So the benefits of being on the Register is that that demonstrates the work that you've put in.

It demonstrates to the public immediately that you are in a position to help them in a way that is going to be good for them and their animal,

and that can be across such a breadth, as we've said, the species that we work with. And it also means, I think for me, one of the things that I found most beneficial of being on the ABTC register is being part of a group of people who are.

Are supportive,

engaged and able to really be able to build networks, develop.

I learned something new pretty much every time I talk to anyone on the Register because there's so much experience there.

And also we know that science changes quickly,

learning changes, what we know changes. And being able to bounce ideas around, having people who are able to explore those ideas with you. I actually think that's such a valuable thing that we don't always shout about enough, is having that support network,

having those peers to engage with and building on our knowledge and ideas together and sometimes just exploring ideas.

It's so valuable to us. So I think that is incredibly,

incredibly useful to have that benefit as well and to know the shifts in the sector and where you can contribute as well.

There's opportunities.

I think, for me, the other thing that I learn regularly is that people who are.

Who are registered on the ABTC register often also have so many other areas of expertise and knowledge and you're able to bring that in and that might be able to help or engage in a slightly different way, but it still brings the aims of the ABTC forward and supports our colleagues as well.

So I think that's a really interesting thing to always bear in mind, is that there's so many hidden skills that you can start to explore as well.

But being a practitioner does have,

Being registered does have so many benefits to practitioners as well. And that recognition, I think, is so critical,

particularly when we know how hard it is for people to find someone who is going to help them in a way that is evidence led and ethical.

Zazie: I think that's wonderful and it really does seem like an amazing community of people and I see people going to wonderful conferences. You put on lots of CPD and it looks so interesting and fascinating for people to go to.

But you also just ended up by talking about the benefits to pet guardians. So can we talk a bit more about that? Because I see a lot of people saying, if you need a trainer, go to the ABTC register.

I say this to people myself as well.

So what are the benefits for ordinary pet guardians? Whatever species they need help with.

Fiona: And yes, I think absolutely, you're right, it's so brilliant to hear, hear that referral.

But actually what's so important is, as you say, for guardians to be able to have the assurance that the people that they're asking for help in what can be such a difficult time in a heartbreaking situation, if you're really struggling with challenges with the pet, who you love and who you want to help,

and you're struggling as well,

knowing that you are able to access someone who has been assessed to that high and consistent standard that we talked about,

have kept up to date with their knowledge and understanding through their cpd.

And as you say, we're really fortunate to have so much great CPD available who are insured in that space as well.

But I think ultimately as well, who have both the theory and the practical skills to help. And that's so important to know that I think again, coming back to that community as well is that pet guardians will know that they.

If you speak to someone who thinks actually this is a little bit outside of my area of knowledge, or actually this involves another species where I don't have that knowledge, they will be able to support you in finding someone.

They will very openly say, this isn't necessarily my area of expertise, I don't feel able to support you, but I can help you find someone who can.

So having that confidence that they will guide you to the right support, I think is really important as well.

And I think you mentioned at the beginning my background is working with rescue animals of all species across a breadth of shelter environments. And I think for me it's absolutely heartbreaking to hear from people who are struggling with a behavior issue or concern with their pet or who just don't understand necessarily what their pet is communicating to them and need support with that.

And I think when people have really tried their best to find someone to help them,

it's so difficult to hear when they, they thought they were doing the right thing and they followed the advice from someone who is, in their view, an expert in this space and they haven't necessarily had the right advice or the right support and it's gone wrong for them or it's gone wrong for their animal.

And I think to me that's really, really critical in terms of having that access to a list of people who are able to help you in that way, to make sure that you get the right support when you need it and you don't reach that point of feeling like you can't work with those challenges anymore.

But someone who's open and honest as well about what you will have to do to do that, that you are going to have to put work in to helping that relationship or helping that challenge that you might be facing.

But as I say, for me it's really difficult seeing those cases where people have done their absolute best. And I do believe that the majority of people really, really want to do the best for their animal and working with them.

So being able to help them and direct them in a really supportive and positive way,

I think is so critical. So if owners come to the ABTC,

look at that list and ask for help, we will make sure that they know where to get that support that will guide them in a way that suits them as well.

And where people are experienced working with different people and different species to be able to achieve the best outcome for everybody as well.

Zazie: And I think that's so important because we hear a lot of stories of people who were absolutely doing the very best that they could for their pet, but unfortunately they've been given bad advice because they went to a trainer who wasn't using the right methods or didn't have the right education and so on.

And it's always heartbreaking to hear those cases. So it's really amazing to know that there is a register in the UK where people can go and they can find someone who knows what to do and they know that they have the expertise, you know, and they've been assessed, as you say,

and they're part of your program, and I think that's fantastic.

And you actually work on so many different areas.

So we also would like to know what is the ABTC working on right now?

Fiona: We do absolutely work on lots of different areas, as you say, and there's always a lot going on in this sector, so it certainly keeps us busy.

Recently we've been working with the relevant government departments to look at regulation, potentially of practitioners in the sector and how that can look and what form that takes.

We respond regularly to relevant consultations from the government that affect our organisations, our members and our aims as a charity to make sure that we're using our collection active Voice to change the way that things work, but also to inform and guide with the knowledge that we have and the expertise in our membership as well.

And a big. A really big piece of work we've been doing is working to get recognition from the United Kingdom Assessment Service, so UKAS, which is the authority that's recognised by the government to ensure standards of assessment in various professions,

so to really make sure that we are rigorous and robust in the processes that we have and that we can demonstrate that as well through a recognised process of standardisation and standards assessment.

So that's been a really exciting piece of work and we've recently had it confirmed that the ABTC scheme does meet the requirements of that international standard and for recognised certification programs.

So that's been really exciting. So we're progressing with that work now.

That's probably going to take a lot of our time up.

And what we've also been doing in order to both support that and facilitate that, but also to ensure that our members and practitioners have clarity about the route that ABTC is taking, is where currently working on our strategy going forward.

So our next strategic period,

we're building that strategy out at the moment to make sure that going forward we have the best impact that we can, but that we have a really sustainable future for animal behavior and trainer and training experts as well in the uk to really, really build that and build on the brilliant work that everyone has been doing as well.

So lots of really exciting things going on and really enjoying it. I think it's such a good time for us to be able to give a voice in this space and to ultimately inform changes to animal welfare and improve them.

Zazie: I think that's wonderful and you're obviously making a big, big difference and congratulations on getting the UCAS recognition. That's fantastic.

And it's so good to hear all of this because it makes such a big, big difference to animal welfare.

And so I'm sure all of our listeners will be cheering you on as they hear about all of these things.

If people want to help increase awareness of the work that the ABTC does, what can they do? How can they help support you?

Fiona: So it's brilliant that people want to support us and we're always really, really appreciative. As I say, we're a charity,

the majority of our team are volunteers because we really believe in the importance of doing this. So we really appreciate any opportunity to increase awareness of the ABTC and the work that we do, and particularly, as we said, to make sure that owners and guardians understand that we're available to support them as well in their need.

So we would certainly encourage people to become ABTC practitioners if they are able.

We also would really encourage people to reach out to our member organisations if they want to become registered practitioners as well,

because I think people don't realise how much support there is for students and practitioners who are developing. And I think the networks we spoke about earlier are critical there as well.

But also that allows you to start talking about this space and the sector more confidently because you have that knowledge and experience. So raising awareness in that way is really important.

And we would certainly encourage people to use their practitioner logos on websites to talk about ABTC activities on social media and to make sure that you mention ABTC when you're having conversations about animal training or behavior work.

And we've got really brilliant practitioners as part of the ABTC who are doing amazing work. So we really like to elevate them and amplify the work they're doing and talk about their individual work as well.

So if you see someone doing something great, we'd really appreciate you giving them a shout out.

And the organizations who do that really critical, welfare focused work, if you can raise awareness of the work that they're doing and the way that we can work together across ABTC and that it really highlights how working together, I think, is critical to making that difference for animals.

And I think that when we're talking about increasing awareness of ABTC and the work that we're doing,

I really would encourage that collaboration across all of this space so that we can really work together to have the best outcome.

Zazie: I think it's really incredible to see how many different organizations are all working together under your umbrella to make animal welfare better in the UK.

And again, as you already so many different species as well. It's not just about dogs, but cats and horses and exotics and donkeys as well. That's really wonderful. But you're also a charity,

so that means that if people want to, they can support you financially or they can go to your shop and buy your clothing. Can you just tell us a bit more about how they can actually support you financially if they want to?

Fiona: Absolutely. Thank you. And, yeah, we're incredibly grateful to anyone who does want to offer financial support for us.

As you say, we are a charity and I think being able to do this work is so critical to move animal welfare forward in this way. So I am wearing some of our merchandise, so we have great clothes and merchandise available.

So I have to say that our shop is online and so you can demonstrate, as well as raise awareness. You can demonstrate awareness and support for the ABTC, but we also have a really exciting new sponsorship scheme,

so individuals, businesses, organisations who support the goals and the approaches and ethos of the ABTC can become sponsors.

So we have a logo for sponsors that they can share on their websites and we will give them a shout out on our social media. We'll continue to share the work that they're doing and give them regular support.

Zazie: Support.

Fiona: And they can be listed on the ABTC website.

So it works hopefully to a mutual benefit.

But that sponsorship package is available and details are on the ABTC website in the About Us section.

But we really would appreciate that because I think when we're talking about what we can all do together, that is a really nice way to collaborate and engage and share expertise from lots of different groups and sectors.

And it might be that you're not in a position to be registered as a practitioner, but it still offers an opportunity to engage in that community, as you say, as well.

So there are lots of ways to support us, but I think that's a really exciting one that we've just brought in recently.

So please do have a look at the website to those of you who are interested in that as well.

Zazie: Awesome. And I think you're setting an absolutely stellar example. So what you're doing is based in the UK, but we have listeners from all around the world. So I would also like to ask your advice really or for your suggestions on what people elsewhere can do if they want to help to move dog training,

animal behavior in a positive direction.

Fiona: I think it's a really great opportunity actually for us when we keep channels of communication open and we talk about what everyone's doing because there's so much great work going on in lots of different spaces.

I think to be able to identify those spaces where we can use our collective voice together and work together to make that difference is so important.

So I think making sure that we're sharing information,

making sure that we're sort of having opportunities where we can have, we have brilliant guest speakers for our CPD from around the world, internationally and keeping that updated, I think that's really critical.

I think having a really clear route of where you want to make a significant change is so important and finding like minded people to do that with.

Because that way you have that drive, you can drive progress and you can demonstrate progress as well for working together.

I think when we're talking about making significant change and moving in a positive direction,

actually having that transparent and open conversation about where we see best practice, where we see things that are working that might work in other spaces, we can draw on that and to share that knowledge is so important as well.

And ultimately bringing that together and using ideas where we see things that are working.

And it might be as well having that collective voice in terms of talking to the public, professionals, policy makers in different spaces.

If someone's already tried it, it's great to know what worked and what didn't and to help you on that route. So I absolutely would certainly say find those like minded people,

have those conversations and look what's working and what isn't and what we can draw from together. Because I think being able to be really open about that is so important to being able to make that progress in different spaces, but also to demonstrate where it's worked and where things are improving is really good and valuable evidence to support change.

Zazie: Thank you for that. I think that's really helpful and it's been really exciting to hear about all the work that you do. I'm so, so grateful for what you do. It's making such a big, big difference and it's just wonderful to see it and I'm a patron of the ABTC and that is such a huge,

huge honor because I think you're just such a wonderful organization. And this is so important for animal welfare, but also for the people who care about pets as well. So, you know, it really, really matters.

So thank you very much for all that you do.

Our last question for our guests is always to ask you to tell us about a book that you've been reading recently and that you absolutely loved. So what have you been reading?

Fiona: Well,

to say, first of all, thank you so much as well for all your Support for the ABTC. It's brilliant, brilliant to have that as well. And. But in terms of reading this, immediately when I thought about this, it actually made me laugh a little bit because I recently had to build a wardrobe and it came with an instructions box that really did feel like I'd read the longest novel by the end of it.

But I am happy to say the wardrobe is up. And it is still up. And I haven't heard it crash yet either.

Zazie: Fantastic.

Fiona: That was the first thing that came to mind.

But outside of that, something that I have enjoyed much more than an instruction booklet is I've just started reading the Secret Hour by Mick Heron.

And I've just started that. But the reason that I've started it is that I read the Slough House series by.

By one.

A long time ago I was in a train station, I picked up slow horses in a train station, got on the train, started reading it and I was absolutely so immersed in it that four and a half hours later I nearly missed my station.

And books like that I am fully in for.

And I really enjoy that fast paced nature of the books. And the Secret Hours is already starting in that way where it's fast paced, there's something happening, there's something really engaging.

But I think the thing that really got me with the Slough House series and the Slow Horses was the depth of the characters. I really like the way that they are formed, really well formed.

But I like the way that they are human, they're relatable, they're so real and they're flawed. But also fundamentally at the heart of the characters who you meet, they demonstrate those strengths and weaknesses and how they support each other.

And I think particularly with the characters that have that really there's a comedic element to it as well that reflects quite often the real life elements of what happens when things go a bit wrong or things don't go right.

But I think I really like that resilience at the heart of the characters and the motivation that they've all got, ultimately they're all going for the same goal and they have each other's best interests at heart overall.

And I think that's really interesting to see that play out behaviorally in terms of the different and interesting ways that they demonstrate that.

And it's not always linear and it's often takes different routes and is quite surprising in how you see that come out. So I think the characters and the way that they play that out is so interesting to me.

So really enjoyed reading it. So as I say, I've just started the Secret Hours, but I'm getting really into it and I think it's.

It's already shown that depth and that fast paced movement as well as that character development as well.

Zazie: That's great. I think books like that are really special and it's always so nice to be that engrossed in a book. So thank you for telling us about it.

Much more interesting than the wardrobe instructions which, however, are important.

I will give you that.

Fiona: Critical to follow to the letter. Much less than drawing, I have to say,

Zazie: but very different. So thank you so much for joining us to tell us all about the work that the ABTC does and thank you. Kristi's having Internet issues, but thank you from both of us for the work that you do at the ABTC because it makes such a big difference and we've loved hearing about it.

If people want to know more about the ABTC, where should they go?

Fiona: And please do visit the ABTC website abtc.org.uk you can also find us by typing in Animal Behaviour and Training Council.

There's a load of information on the website but if you don't, if you can't find what you want to find or you've got a question that you can't find the answer to, then please do just email us.

There's contact details on there as well.

We really, really want to talk to people who are interested in this. We really enjoy it and we'd really like to support people who have questions.

So do just get in touch with us and we will help you as well.

Zazie: I love how approachable you are and also, you know, people can contact the member organizations as well. So I'll put your website and a link to the shop in the show notes so that people can find those.

And today I would like to give a special shout out to our listeners in Sheffield in England, fellow Northerners like me, which is very nice, we're delighted to have you with us, but wherever you're listening from.

Thank you so much for joining us and for being part of our wonderful community.

If you've enjoyed this, please tell a friend about it. And please tell a friend about the work of the ABTC and what a difference they are making to support good animal welfare and behavior and training.

So thank you so much for being with us and we will see you next time.

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