How to Help Your Dog Behave with Guests with Jeff Millman
What to do if your dog jumps up on guests or is afraid of them, with dog trainer Jeff Millman, plus we reminisce about the Academy for Dog Trainers.
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Listen to episode 54 of The Pawsitive Post in Conversation wherever you get your podcasts (Apple, Spotify) or below, watch on Youtube or below, or scroll down to read a transcript of the highlights.
How to help your dog behave with guests with Jeff Millman
How can you help your dog to like it--and behave well--when visitors come to your home? Zazie and Kristi are joined by dog trainer Jeff Millman, author of Triggers and Reactions: A Guide to Fixing Your Dog Behavior Problems, to chat about this common issue.
We talk about:
- Why having your dog jump on guests is in some ways a nice problem to have
- The behaviours we can teach them to do instead
- The signs to look for that would suggest that your dog is shy or fearful of guests
- How to use management when guests come over
- Understanding how to use desensitization and counter conditioning for fearful dogs
- How dog training culture has changed over the years and reward-based methods have become more popular
- What it was like to study at the original Academy for Dog Trainers and how much Jeff loved it
- and finally, we ask Jeff what he's been reading lately
The books recommended by Jeff are:
- When Everyone Knows that Everyone Knows... Common Knowledge and the Mysteries of Money, Power, and Everyday Life by Steven Pinker
- Never: A Novel by Ken Follett
About Jeff Millman: Jeff Millman was always known as an animal fanatic since he was a little boy. After studying journalism, living in Alaska after college while living in a tent, working professionally as an internet consultant and creative director, he studied dog training with the world-famous Jean Donaldson in San Francisco in 2002. Since then, he has been honing his dog training craft while training thousands of dogs. He’s the author of three books, including the two-volume Triggers and Reactions: A Guide to Fixing Dog Behavior Problems. lives in Cary, NC with his two wonderful children, amazing wife, and English Shepherds, Sky and Storm.
Jeff Millman's website: https://www.jeffmillman.com/
Highlights of the conversation about how to help your dog behave with guests
Z: Today we're talking about how to get your dogs to greet visitors nicely.
And I think sometimes people are quite embarrassed if their dog jumps on visitors. But actually, in a way it's a nice problem to have because the dog is being friendly in that case, even though they're perhaps a bit overenthusiastic.
So what do you tell your clients about that?
J: Yeah, so any type of reactivity, the volumes that I came up with, triggers and reactions.
Whether the reaction is jumping, barking, or biting, everything's handled the same, and the trigger is the person coming in the house.
And depending on what you're looking for, the goal typically is calm behaviors.
So whatever the final behavior is, whether it's jumping, barking, or biting, if you work on two options, either desensitization, actually three, Desensitization, management, or obedience,
you can solve any type of reaction. That. The way I phrase it with my clients is if you look at your dog and say, gosh, I sure don't like that behavior, you can change it. And the behavior that you might not like might simply be the dog is uncomfortable or nervous. It doesn't have to be an obedience problem where the dog is friendly jumping.
It might just be the dog is a little nervous. I sure don't like when my dogs are nervous. So if you don't like what your dog is currently doing, you can desensitize, manage, or use obedience. Those are the three options that I recommend.
K: So for dogs who are like the enthusiastic jumper uppers and Soleil, she doesn't jump up that much. She has. She like. I have one pair of pants that she really likes to engage with in a romantic way, which I find really funny, but my wife does not.
For dogs who are jumping up, there's a few different behaviors. You know, if you're going to let. Let's train a new behavior route. There's a few different behaviors that are sort of useful.
What's your favorite and why?
J: Yeah, I mean, the two that I talk about in the book that are kind of logical and, you know, are very helpful are recall your dog is jumping on somebody, you can call them, or go to your bed.
Both of those options. I always recommend to be proactive rather than reactive.
Because the way I phrase it is I'd much rather have my dog not jump on the next 10 people that come in and then have me have to say, hey, don't do that.
Then think, plan ahead. And as soon as they see somebody, ask them to go to their bed or call them away.
So I call that proactive obedience versus reactive obedience.
And it just over time, works better because then you're not having the rehearsal of the behavior, which is person coming in, dog jumping, person coming in, dog jumping.
So that's kind of how I work with those situations.
Z: So do you teach people to do a lot of training on that in advance, because sometimes it can take quite a bit of practice, can't it? And dogs can be quite excited.
J: Yeah, yeah. And I. A lot of what I bring to the table is evaluating a dog's response. So if a dog simply can't respond to obedience, then, you know, it's not just magically going to work. You can't just say, come, come, come, or go to your bed, go to your bed multiple times, which is never recommended.
So what I focus on is the proactive strategy. Always first, like whether someone's coming in the house or you're going to a restaurant or a brewery and you want to see if your dog can listen to you.
I'm a huge clicker fan, and what I recommend to my clients, it's so much easier simply to click behind your dog. So your dog's in front of you. The guest is further away.
If you click and the dog doesn't respond, then at that moment, the dog is over threshold. And if you saw your dog jump the last time somebody came over, they're probably going to do that at that moment.
So then that's when I would switch to management, which is grabbing the leash gently. Hopefully they're trailing a leash. If you're not sure how they're going to respond, gently moving them away and then working further away to accomplish one of those goals.
Z: And of course, sometimes the issue is that the dog actually is fearful and they're afraid of the visitor to the home.
And I think sometimes people can find it quite hard to recognize that because they expect dogs, all dogs, to be friendly to all people.
If only they were, but they're not. And so what do you tell your clients to look out for that might be actual signs of fear or anxiety when someone is there?
J: Yeah. And there's a whole laundry list of things to look for. The first thing to look for is freezing or stiff behaviors.
Quick movements is another version of stiffness. But just, uh, if. If there's somebody comes in and a dog moves quickly, I call it little rabbit steps. If they move quickly or they just jerk their head towards a stimulus or a trigger, that's a sign.
What I always recommend is look for nonchalant, casual movements.
And what I recommend for my clients is to notice when it's just the family. You're watching a movie, what does their dog naturally do if somebody stands up or goes into the kitchen.
But then if someone rings the bell, notice the difference and the differences is what I recommend that everyone starts to learn. Because the casual, normal movements is What a dog is doing when they're comfortable.
It's the quick, jerky, surprise movements that is what you want to look for. So jerky movements, stiffness, a tail going down is a red flag.
White eyes, of course, you know, whale eye is what it's called.
Those types of stiff, quick, jerky movements are the. Are the main thing that I recommend to start with. And there's a lot of other details, but if you start by looking at that, you can really learn a lot about your dog.
K: So earlier in the discussion, you were talking about how sometimes you like using management.
So for this particular context, what are your favorite kinds of management? What do you recommend to your clients when they're going to have visitors coming over? You did mention the dog having a leash on at the door, which I think is really useful.
J: Yeah. And that's just such a obvious, simple thing that a lot of people just frankly don't think about. And it's really the easiest thing. So that's, that's number one.
Baby gates. Having your dog in the backyard, if you have a backyard, having them in another room, if that causes other problems, where a dog is anxious in the bedroom upstairs, if the visitors are around, then I always recommend that you work on that separately to avoid your dog having an association.
Soon as I hear strange noises and people talking downstairs, I mean, I'm, you know, when that happens, I'm upstairs and now I don't like being alone.
Work on that. When it's just the family. So then your dog learns to be comfortable in the home, in another room when there's nobody present, then when somebody appears.
One thing that I do recommend is one family member is with the dog in the room, clicking and treating or just giving treats when they hear noises downstairs, the visitor arriving, et cetera.
So it's not just all or nothing. It's not, you're in the other room, you're managed. But we can desensitize you to the movements and the noises that you hear when somebody appears.
So it's always trying to manage for safety. But then if you see another problem, work on that.
I like to say behind the scenes before guests arrive. So then when guests arrive, it's not this double whammy of I'm alone, plus I hear these strange noises.
Z: I like how you're centering the dog there. And desensitization, you just mentioned desensitization and counter conditioning are really useful when we're teaching dogs not to be afraid of other people or of the noises that you said they might hear downstairs, for example.
But I find sometimes people actually find it quite hard to get their head around this idea. So what do you tell to clients to help them understand this process and how it works?
J: Yeah, that's a great question. So basically, desensitization is introducing a trigger at an intensity where there's no undesired reaction.
The way I like to phrase it is nobody hires me to come over when their dog looks at somebody great, that's not a problem.
It's the looking plus jumping, barking, or biting.
So if there's an undesired behavior at that moment, your dog is not getting desensitized. You want a neutral or happy response.
So as long as your dog is able to experience person coming in or a noise and remain neutral or happy, you are desensitizing.
So one thing I recommend is if your dog reacts to noises, it could be a fire truck, it could be a doorbell record, or use YouTube noises repeatedly throughout the day.
At a level where the way that I evaluate is if a dog is able to calmly take treats, then they're getting desensitized. If there's any type of hesitation or more obvious reaction, they're over threshold and having a bad experience or a questionable experience, which could lead to sensitization, which is more sensitive and more reactive.
K: So just because we know how tricky desensitization and counter conditioning is as a technique, what sort of things do you try and stress to your clients? What, what kind of tips do you give them to help them wrap their minds around the technique?
J: Yeah, so, so basically the way I answer that question is whether a dog is near a person for five seconds or five minutes or an hour.
The way I like to think about it is that's an interaction and that's, that's an experience.
So every experience, whether it's five seconds or an hour, builds up to the relationship of a pleasant experience.
So what I just recommend is, you know, I always say don't, don't put an artificial deadline. Don't put a time frame.
Your dog doesn't have to be with the party for the entire, you know, hour, two hours, whatever.
Every time your dog looks at a guest or hears a noise and is, is able to turn around towards you, whether you do a command, leave it, go to your bed, whatever, or just simply respond to the click and receive the treat, they are having a good experience, and that is building the relationship.
So to avoid overwhelming my clients, I don't give them homework where it says, you know, you have to.
Your dog has to love the next guest that comes over all I tell them to make it easier is simply create a good experience and then if you want to do more work, literally one step closer,
or if the guest is sitting down, have them stand up and then reevaluate the dog's response. If they're able to maintain their comfort, you are properly desensitizing and you're working towards a good relationship.
So just very small methodical steps to reach that long term relationship is what I recommend.
Z: Breaking things down into small steps is really important, isn't it? It makes such a big difference and I think kind of the theory behind this is actually really quite complex.
So it has to be small bite sized chunks for people.
J: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. And there are definitely times I've been doing this a long time where I will go into more of the science and I'll see my client's eyes glaze over like, wait, wait,
I need to make sure you're understanding. So you know what I will do is say, can you like pretend your friend is on the couch right now? Can you explain to him or her what I just said?
And then that helps me understand if they really got it. Because to me, this stuff, when I say easy, it's not fast or simple. And I've been doing this a while.
So for me it's logical. I see dogs do things that I'll even point out and say, did you see that? My client will say what?
So there's things that I notice just because I've been doing this while.
So it's my job not to just talk and expect them to do it, but to make sure they can actually do it.
So sometimes I have to reel it back and say, okay, let's just start with, I walk by every time and this is how I always start, by the way. But your dog looks at me, just simply click.
What would happen? And then we'll talk. What happened? My dog turned towards me and took the treat.
Did the treat. Did they take it rougher than normal? That's a sign of stress. Oh, actually they did.
Okay, I'm too close.
Let's redo it. When I'm five feet further away, let's do it again. What happened? Turned around, took the treat gently.
So it's just a lot of just frequent evaluation to make sure that everything's going smoothly rather than pushing the dog over threshold even a little bit, if possible.
So the dog has a beginning, middle, and end of a good relationship.
And there's lots and lots of times over the years and I enjoy this when this happened where I'll pet. My goal is not to pet every dog. Some dogs I literally never pet because they're too aggressive.
But in those situations, lots of times my clients are thrilled because now they can have someone in the house without their dog attacking somebody, which is a win.
But maybe I'm not going to pet that dog. But a lot of times over the years, my clients will just say, at least I have a plan. Like, you know, my friend doesn't have to pet my dog, but at least I can have somebody come over and we can have coffee.
And maybe I'm standing over here holding the leash while my friend is sitting on the couch. But at least they're in the house.
So it's just trying to find those starting points and then give them a formula for just continuing the process that makes such a big difference.
Z: And that thing of the dog no longer taking treats so gently, actually is something that Jean really emphasized to me when I was at the Academy and struggling with one of the assignments that we had to do.
And that was one of the clues I had to look for in my dog. If this was Bodger that I did it with, that was one of the clues I had to look for.
And that really helped.
J: Yeah, absolutely.
And a lot of times you have to ask the right question, because there's been many times over the years where someone says, oh, my dog never takes treats, roughly. They always have a gentle mouth.
And then I'll say, do you actually give treats when you're outside, when your dog sees dogs? Oh, no, I don't do that.
You know, so, like, if you're not gathering information, you're not gathering all the possible information you can. So that's a big recommendation for my clients is your job is to gather information and analyze it to make sure you're taking the proper steps to keep your dog comfortable.
Z: And I also like the emphasis there on giving your dog treats in a wide, wide range of circumstances as well. And that's giving dogs treats when on walks is one of the things that we, especially Christy, often talk about on this show anyway.
So, yeah, it's something that makes a big, big difference now. You've actually been a dog trainer for quite a long time now, and I feel like a lot has changed over the years.
So how do you think things have changed both amongst trainers and amongst the general public in terms of how we see dog training?
J: Yeah, unfortunately, there's still the old school, you know, choke chains and stuff like that, which I never agree with. I mean, my most serious aggression case was a client hired me because she was bit in her face and had 47 stitches and plastic surgery.
I didn't show up and say, no, we use the shock collar. It's just never appropriate, never recommended. And there's lots of science behind that.
But as far as changes, I really think people are being a little bit more vocal as far as being comfortable saying that.
I think it used to be kind of the old school mentality of like, well, I don't want to alienate potential clients that might hire me.
There are clients that contact me and say, just so you know, I know you don't like choke chains, but I'm going to use one. And it happened a couple weeks ago.
I said, sorry, I, you know, if that's really what you want to do, I'm literally not the right trainer for you because I'm not going to show up and feel comfortable with that and I'm literally not going to use that.
So there are, you know, situations where my client at that moment has a prong collar or something like that. And so, and she, you know, he or she says, I want to change,
I will work with that client and help them get into a harness or a collar.
I'm not like, you know, just not going to talk to that person. But if someone is just absolutely adamant about that,
I literally won't. You know, I'm just saying thank you, but I'm just not, not the guy. You know, there's lots of other trainers will do that. I don't agree with it.
If you ever want to, you know, hire me someday and I'll explain and show you other ways, I'm more than happy to talk to you in the future.
So I think people are feeling more confident is what I'm seeing. Like, kind of drawing that line in the sand. And I, you know, even on, on social media, I think people are being a little bit more vocal is kind of one big change.
What, what about you? Is that something you're seeing as well?
Z: Yeah, and I think, I mean, part of what you're saying is not just about not being the right dog trainer for someone who still wants to use a shock collar, but it's also the case that I think amongst the general public there are lots of people who do not want to take that route.
And they do want to find a reward based trainer and they maybe sometimes they struggle to, but that means that for those of us who are reward based trainers, there are more than enough clients to go around.
You know, I think the public's view has changed quite a lot on this and there is a lot more awareness of training methods and the fact that we should be using treats to train dogs basically, which is a very good thing.
J: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. So that's definitely a big change I've seen for sure.
K: I think we're seeing a lot of sort of like vocal, a lot of sort of expressions of anger from the side the trainers who use aversives right now, I think in the last few years.
And I'm hoping it's like an extinction burst because it does seem like there's quite a bit of sort of like scrabbling, angry and not just, you know, talking about their own techniques but really coming after in an unpleasant and unprofessional way, coming after rewards based trainers. So yeah, yeah, here's hopefully.
J: And one thing I do appreciate is if that's all you've learned, you know, you worked with somebody, that's what you've learned. It's not like you can magically just switch and learn new techniques and become comfortable with them.
So you know, I feel for a lot of those trainers that they're kind of panicking a little bit because they, maybe they even realize this isn't the right way or I wish I knew a better way.
But it's not just, you know, the information we have. I like to say it's not rocket science, but it's science and you either know it or you don't.
And if they don't know how to use treats properly, treating, not bribing by the way, then they just might feel panic and just unsure. But there's lots of information and they can, they can learn those methods so you know, they can change if they want to.
K: So we were interested to hear that you graduated from the bricks and mortar Academy.
So both Zazie and I are online grads. So we always like hearing stories about what it was like when it was in person in San Francisco. And I actually, I was hopeful to go to it when it was the in person but I, I couldn't make it work within my life.
And then finally I was like I'm ready. And it had, at that point it was right around the time it stopped and Jean was coming to have a, an online version.
So you know, give us some stories. What was your experience like?
J: And I actually would like to hear some of the other ones too. Because I don't know a lot about the online. If anyone could pull it off, Jean can. But the in person, it was just such an amazing experience.
I have a journalism degree from a pretty good university and the Academy was very challenging.
One thing that's just unbelievably wonderful is we had access to Gene and she gave presentations pretty much every day, five to six hours a day of in classroom Gene time, which was incredible.
Janet also was there as well and she's amazing too. But we had five to six hours of classroom time and then we had projects where you would, you know,
I'm sure you know, it was within the SF SPCA. So we would have homework assignments or ongoing projects. You know, go work with a separation anxiety dog, go work with an aggressive dog, work with a dog who's pulling on the leash, work with a puppy.
And you would have these projects that you would have to do to complete and you do write ups about them.
We also taught classes to the public which was pretty interesting.
We would do case studies with Jean and Janis and work on as if they were the clients and we had to work with them and pretend they were clients. And then we did everything from.
There's some tricks that we would teach your dogs, but they would sit there and grade us in person.
And I was kind of the nerd of the group. A lot of the other students would be going to the Golden Gate Bridge or doing different things and I'm like, no, I don't want to miss anything.
I have to go study. I took flashcards and I studied.
I was probably putting in 12 to 16 hours a day just trying to stay above water. It was a lot of work. And then there was a six hour final exam that was really intense.
But just the whole experience was incredible. I mean there's just literally nothing that I would change about it. I mean it was just, it was magical. And I mean, I can't say enough good things about it.
I wish everyone could do to do the in person as well because it was really, really phenomenal. So it was great.
K: There's, there's still the six hour final exam.
Z: Yes.
K: But the thought of like coming in as sort of a newbie trainer and having to treat Jean like a client would be relatively terrifying, I think.
Z: Yes, that's scary.
J: Yeah. She was always very, very nice. But it was definitely a little intimidating for sure. But you know, I just, I just really appreciated every moment.
I mean going through it, I was well aware, like, wow, that's Jean right there. What we're getting right now is really valuable and interesting and everything. So yeah, I feel incredibly fortunate to have got that. What about the online version? How did the projects and everything work for you?
How did that work?
Z: Well, I think she did an amazing job of turning it into an online course. But of course you get longer to do it, which I think helps you fit it around other things that you're doing in your life.
But it is still challenging and that six hour exam at the end is definitely challenging everyone to a very high standard.
And then there are, along the way there's a few exams and assignments and video assignments where you have to send in video of your dog training skills doing different kinds of things.
And some of those actually are very tough too. But they have wonderful staff who help to coach you through doing those.
So that helps a lot. And I feel very lucky to be a graduate of the academy. I think I learned so much from it and I went into it as a psychologist with a lot of background knowledge already and it really, really improved my skills.
J: Yeah.
Z: So, yeah, I feel very grateful for that.
J: And just the reading list that she requires, it's just, it's a lot and it's really an intense program. So I'm glad to hear, I'm not surprised, but I'm glad to hear you enjoy the online version too. I'm sure it's amazing.
This transcript has been lightly edited for content and style.
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