Dog Bites: Ask Me Anything with Prof. Carri Westgarth

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Zazie Todd and Kristi Benson were joined by special guest Carri Westgarth to answer your questions about dog bites.

Zazie Todd, Carri Westgarth, and Kristi Benson chat on Zoom

By Zazie Todd, PhD

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Ask Me Anything about Dog Bites

Zazie and Kristi are joined by Prof. Carri Westgarth to answer your questions about dog bites, how to avoid getting bitten by a dog, and what to do if you have been bitten by a dog.

We talked about:

  •     Why dogs bite
  •     How to use management to keep people safe from dogs
  •     How to keep children safe from dog bites
  •     What to do if a loose dog charges you 
  •     How to regain trust if your own dog has bitten you
  •     The difference between predatory behaviour and fear aggression
  •     The systemic factors that can make a difference to the prevalence of dog bites, and why education is only part of the answer
  •     Why Breed Specific Legislation isn't the solution to dog bites
  •     And more!


Also mentioned in this episode:


Books by Prof. Carri Westgarth:


Books by Zazie Todd PhD:


Professor Carri Westgarth is Chair in Human-Animal Interaction at the University of Liverpool with a passion for understanding the relationships we have with our pets. With a background in animal behaviour and dog training she has trained in veterinary epidemiology and human public health. Her research interests focus on the implications of dog ownership for human health and wellbeing, but also how owner management of their dogs can impact dog welfare. Both quantitative and qualitative research methods are used to tackle her primary research questions of how to improve population health through the promotion of dog walking, and how to prevent dog bites. Her expertise on understanding and changing the behaviour of dog owners is sought by many organisations wishing to prevent dog bites and promote ‘responsible’ dog owner behaviour, such as her work as a consultant for Royal Mail. She is also a Full Member of the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors and founder of the Merseyside Dog Safety Partnership. In her spare time Carri teaches dog training classes, and previously was a professional Assistance Dog Instructor. Her practical experience in many areas relating to dogs, combined with a multi-disciplinary academic perspective, gives unique strength and relevance to her expertise.

Prof. Carri Westgarth's website 


Highlights of the conversation about dog bites

Z: So the housekeeping is first of all a disclaimer in that we can't give advice on your specific pet. If you're having issues, then you need to see a dog trainer, a vet or a veterinary behaviourist as appropriate. And in some cases, of course, given we're talking about dog bites, medical care or a psychologist as well, or instead.

So we can't give specific advice, all we can do is give general information that we hope you will find useful and interesting. 

We've got some really complex questions to answer here today. So we're all going to be answering all of them, I think, and having a conversation about them because there is a lot that can be said. So Kristi, I'm going to turn over to you to start with our first question, please.

K: Sure thing. Sounds good. Okay, so we have a question here from Nikki saying my dog used to bite people in the back of the leg, mostly men. And I worked with him a lot and he stopped doing it a year and a half ago.

He did it again twice in a short time and not since, nor have I given him an opportunity to do so. Since these were to men, he prefers women who'd been working in my suite for a couple of days before it happened.

He had been totally fine with them. He doesn't break skin. But still, I can't figure out why he did this. Again, any insight or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. So we'll start with Carri.

What an interesting question to start us off.

C: Yeah, I first want to say well done for recognizing so much about what your dog is potentially having, you know, challenges with and having worked so hard before and now managing it really well to prevent it from happening again. Because that, that takes a lot of work, insight, confidence to do that.

So, yeah, you're obviously quite a special dog owner in that respect. We're trying to work really hard on this.

The coming at the back of the legs makes me wonder whether this is fear based. I mean, it's really hard without having a big wider discussion because if you think about it, if you're worried by something, if it's facing towards you, you feel a bit more worried and probably a bit too scared to do anything. But when they're walking away is the moment to actually go, ah, I don't, I don't like you.

And it could be that over time, over those two days, your dog was worried but was a bit overwhelmed and therefore a bit perhaps shut down and then has gained more confidence to do something about it over the time.

I mean, or whether it's always worth. And we always start with this, with behavior is thinking about pain as well. Was there anything perhaps around that time or that the dog was feeling a little bit under the weather and was just a bit more grumpy those days as to why that might not have that in a situation managed to set him off where you thought it had been all right before?

Get The Happy Dog Owner

And this is where it gets really interesting in terms of our research we've done with dog bite victims and owners, that that trust we can get in our dogs when they haven't done something for a while, it can be really hard to remember that they do have a problem still.

And managing that balance, that level of trust is really interesting, but key to managing safety around dogs. And I think you've said, I don't trust him anymore. So I'm managing it much more tightly now, which is key at this point, I think until you figure out a bit more about what's going on.

So I would definitely investigate for pain if behaviour is changing again, but had been okay, but has changed. I don't know what anyone else thinks.

Z:  Yeah, I would second that. I think whenever a dog does behaves in a way that is a bit different than usual, we always have to think, is there something medical underlying here?

So is the dog in pain? You know, and obviously this was a long time ago, so it wouldn't be necessarily important to see the vet now, but sometimes if there is a change like that, that's something to think about.

And then, like Carri as well, the fact that the dog is coming from behind. And after a few days, it does make me wonder if the dog is still afraid of men.

And maybe the workmen were making noises and things. Everything was different in the apartment. And that also could be kind of like trigger stacking and making more. The dog more nervous of what's happening.

And then perhaps after a few days, they've got used to the men being there. So the dog feels kind of confident enough to come up from behind.

Dog Bites: A Multidisiplinary Perspective

And I think dogs who are fearful, often they're more likely to bite from behind than in front. It somehow seems to feel a bit safer for them. So it's really great and amazing that you're managing this so well.

For anyone else who's listening, managing something like this often involves keeping the dog completely separate, making sure that the dog is never in a situation where they might be likely to bite again.

So using pet gates, using doors, putting your dog in a different room, keeping them on a leash when walking them so that they can't just run up to some guy in the street who they happen to take a dislike to. All of those things are really, really important.

And then if you think it's fear, then you can do some work on desensitization and counter conditioning to help get them to learn that, actually. And this, it sounds like you'd already done a lot of this.

And I think one of the things that's really useful to know about counter conditioning is that things can regress if you stop doing it for a while. So it's actually really important to do what we might call maintenance training.

So keep up the desensitization and counter conditioning. Even if the dog is okay, every now and then, make sure that you have a session of doing that to help, you know, keep them learning that men are okay and it's okay to be around them.

K: Yeah. When I read this question first, I. I had really similar thoughts to both of you. My building on that. Is it. Could it be pain? Could something be changing in the dog?

I also thought, could the dog have. Have sort of entered into what we call social maturity? So when they become an adult, and that can be a time when dogs are, you know, if they were fearful as a younger dog, they might, you know, sort of start to go into more of an aggressive sort of behavioral pattern. Um, so it could be that the dog hit that two to three years and became socially mature. 

So the work that you had done, you know, like Zazie said, changing behavior patterns, but same underlying emotional state. And then my other thought was, you know, the dog might not have been just fine the entire time that the workmen were there, the dog might have been just holding it together. So I think if the dog was just holding it together and then.

Bark! The Science of Helping Your Anxious, Fearful, or Reactive Dog

So something to keep in mind when we're talking about the training that we've done, it could be that the dog is fine with men for a couple of minutes. There is this parameter of time that really affects some dogs.

So it's like the dog is actually joyful and fine for a couple of minutes, but we have a couple of days here. And then like Zazie said, they're. They're maybe dressed differently, they're maybe making sounds, and they've been there for so long.

So it. The dog just reached a point where he. Where, you know, that he was like, I can't handle this anymore.

Um, so I would say that keeping that in mind as you're building a new training plan, that maybe the, you know, maybe the behavior or dress or sounds associated with the men may be the time.

These are all things to keep in mind. And I would say to reach out to a trainer for this one, because this is. These are complicated. Big questions.

Z: Yeah.

K: So we have another question from Lauren, who says, when I'm out walking my reactive, fear aggressive dog and a loose dog runs up to us, what signs should I watch for to know if the dogs will fight or be okay and how should I intervene?

My dog is 26 pounds, and most of the unrestrained dogs in my neighborhood are bigger than her. So we'll go with Zazie first on this one.

Z: Okay. And this is one of those kind of nightmare situations. If you've been working with your dog on reactivity issues, the last thing you need is someone else's dog just running up. Even if the dog is super, super friendly, it can be a big deal for your dog and it can set your training back sometimes quite a long way, and it can take you a while to get back from that.

So given that, I mean, I think it's okay to shout to the other dog owner and ask them to put their dog on leash, because it doesn't matter if they're friendly, especially if this is happening in an area where dogs are meant to be under control or dogs are meant to be on leash.

And that happens quite often. It's perfectly fine to ask the other owner to do that, regardless of Whether or not the dog seems to be friendly.

And then some of the body language that you can look for might be the dog actually not coming directly at you. But a friendly dog is more likely to actually kind of meander around in a slight curve to get to you. They're not running at you. 

And look to see if they seem tense or do they have a nice loose, happy body. Are they wagging their tail? Wagging their tail in a nice wiggly kind of way. Does their mouth look kind of soft or does their mouth look tight? Are their eyes kind of staring? Is their tail upright and tight, or just very tightly wagging a narrow wag?

And are they coming straight for you and are they growling at you? Because those would all be signs that this dog is not actually very friendly. 

And I have a little dog, and my little dog, he's a Shih Tzu. He is actually friendly with most other dogs, but he's a senior and he's going blind. And he, you know, I don't ever want him to have issues with another dog. So if you can pick your dog up. I know some people say you shouldn't. It doesn't matter if it keeps your dog safe and comfortable.

Pick your dog up as well, and you can even turn them around so that they can't even see the other dog. And that's an absolutely fine thing to do as well, because it's your dog that matters. It's not the dog and the other owner that you have to pay attention to.

You have to do what is going to work for your dog. And I don't know, Carri, I'm sure you've got a lot to add to that.

C: Yeah, I'd say some of the things I've got little Roxy, a Chihuahua cross Pug. And due to being attacked a few times, she's not the keenest when other dogs run over. And it is easy to pick her up. 

When I've had bigger dogs, some of the things that I've done, you know, if there's no sign of an owner and this dog is still coming, Hello. I want to say hello. I will get my dogs to. To sit in front of me because quite quietly. And I'm giving them lots of treats to try and make it a good experience for them at the same time, because we don't really want this other dog here.

But if they're just sat on the floor, their bottom's not there to sniff and they're just really boring. We're just really boring.

Wag: The Science of Making Your Dog Happy

Then I find generally a dog that was coming over will kind of get bored very quickly and wander off, which can be helpful. Or you could throw some treats off into the bushes and they, ooh, they go off after that wasp. You then have got an opportunity to walk away.

The harder thing is when I think a scuffle actually breaks out, you know, so hopefully this dog is fairly friendly and you can manage your dog enough for it not to kick off and manage to get this dog away in time.

But if it does go south, a lot of dog bites that. When I'm looking at hospital records of dog bites even to children, a lot of them have occurred when there's been a dog to dog aggression incident and people have been trying to put their hands in.

So I definitely would be, I'd be aware of that and try and get yourselves away and behind a barrier or put something less vulnerable than your soft exposed hands in.

You know, if I've got, I often wear high wellies, you know, up to my knees, Wellington boots because of the British weather. But also if I needed to, that is far more protective to put in between my dog and another dog.

I did once put my hand down onto the collar of another dog to move it away from my dog. Cause it wouldn't leave my dog alone. Right at the point my own dog Jaz decided to turn round and very inhibited, but nail that dog on the back of the neck to tell it, I've had enough, go away.

And thankfully there was not a mark on my hand, but my God, it hurt.

So she had very good bite inhibition. But yeah, putting your hands in there is not necessarily the best thing. And when I've worked in kennels, putting a foot in there you can, I mean I've still had marks through Wellington boots, but that was a lot better than putting skin, exposed skin in there. And this is why as dog trainers, we tend to wear trousers when we enter a house to do a behavior consultation. We don't go in there in shorts with exposed legs as well.

Any other thoughts? Kristi, You've probably had some experiences of this.

It is actually really hard to advise.

K: Yeah, it's been a long time since I've walked dogs on leash for sure because I live out on a ranch and so I usually walk my dog and I don't interact with other dogs that much.

So I, I was more like, oh, I'm interested to what to hear what others have to say on this topic because it does seem tricky. There's, there is a lot of loose dogs around here for sure. But yeah, I know this is a big problem and I hear a lot of great advice from other trainers too about it.

Okay, so we have a related question. So for Zazie, that question was about when you have a dog with you. But sometimes we get charged even when we don't have a dog with us. What should you do if an off leash dog charges you and you're worried that they might bite?

Z: I put this, I put this one in because it relates to the previous question and it's something that I'm very often asked. So I thought it might be useful to mention and I was going to put this in anyway. And then coincidentally, just yesterday I was walking with a friend and we got charged by an off leash dog who was all muscle and growl and it actually was very scary, but it turned out all right.

So I always tell people, remember what we say to children about if they're worried about whether or not a dog will bite, we tell them to be a tree, namely to stand absolutely still.

If you stand still, then you're like Carri said earlier, you're kind of boring. So they're more likely to lose interest in you. There's actually a really nice video that the late Dr. Sophia Yin made once where she was out jogging, I think it was in Taiwan [correction: Australia], anyway, somewhere where there were lots of loose dogs who were all interested in her when she was jogging along.


And so she made this little video that showed what happened when she stopped and this group of dogs lost interest and she started jogging again and they were all coming to see and investigate her and then she stopped again and they all lost interest.

So I think stopping standing still is really helpful. And then shout because shout for the dog's owner to come and get their dog as well because you want someone else to come.

I mean, they should be hopefully in earshot and will come often when this happens. They're saying the dog is friendly and they're taking, they're calling the dog and the dog is not coming back.

And that's really annoying. But anyway, shout for them to come too. But if you have to, often you also can back away slowly as well. We have a lot of loose dogs in this neighborhood. They're not normally as angry as the one was yesterday that came at us, but that seems to help.

Carri, what would you advise?

C: Yeah, it sounds good.

Yeah, some sort of distraction technique, loud noise again, throwing treats or throwing something away from you that they can get investigate and that might give you that time to, you know, you don't want to run away, but try and get behind Something is there a, a fence, a gate, a hedge, a rock, Anything you can put between you and a dog that you're worried about its behaviour, but as slowly and calmly as you, as you can, but quickly enough to get behind it, if you know what I mean.

So try not to provoke it anymore. But physical barriers can be really useful in these sorts of situations. So keep your eye out for what's around you. If you're in the middle of a field, maybe not so helpful, but there's normally something you might be able to get behind.

K: Right, so we have another question from Kim. Is there evidence that guides what types of interventions most impact dog bites in a community? I think this is a fascinating question.

I work for a local government and I'm looking for ideas to drive down the number of dog incidents in public and shared spaces. Emphasis on dog. Dog incidents if I have to choose.

So I think that's, I was a little bit surprised that there was the emphasis on dog, dog because I would always think that, oh, someone who works for a government is going to be all about, you know, human safety above everything. So this was, I thought this was a great question. So we'll, we'll start with Carri on this one.

C: Yeah, really great question. And right up my street, the type of work that I do within the Merseyside Dog Safety Partnership as well. We work with loads of people in, in, in government trying to do these sorts of things.

I think the, the big thing to remember is there's, there's generally not one thing when it comes to injury prevention. And what I've learned from working in human public health as well is it's not one thing, it's an injury or accident tends to happen because of.

There was a chain of events that led to it, there was a series of failings. It's why you have, you know, all these checklists with pilots on flights so that they can't, you know, not everything can, can go wrong as long as you manage to stop it at different points.

And all those little things that you can be doing as interventions all add up to reduce the amounts of injuries that get through the cheese slices. If you imagine there's, you know, that, is it that Emmental or Eden, the Swiss cheese model, it's called, with the holes.

If all those holes line up, a hazard can get through and cause an event. But there's all these different layers. As long as those holes aren't lined up, it will get prevented.

So we talk about that. What people are surprised about is actually educational type interventions are generally the worst effectiveness, because it's really hard to change human behavior. We might be able to increase human knowledge, but that doesn't normally change necessarily change our behavior. Just because we know something doesn't stop us behaving in certain ways. Because there are many reasons why we behave.

One thing we can do is modify the hazard. We tend to not have a lot of control over that. The hazard being the actual dog. How can we make the actual dogs that we're supplying to society more safe? Perhaps there is some level of intervention in a community that can be done around that if we think of licensing for breeding and things like that.

So the more we can breed good, healthy, good temperament dogs to supply society with in the first place, the less we have to rely on owners and other dogs and, and people interacting with dogs for behaving appropriately around them. There's also technical controls and environmental management which can be so, so useful.

Zazie mentioned baby gates earlier. So in the home, a baby gate is brilliant. You know, all the supervision and education in the world. A baby gate means actually just the dog and the baby are just not physically together unless someone's in the interaction with them and can solve a lot of problems.

You can try and train your dogs to do all sorts of things, but actually and try and train your children. But I mean, again, how successful is that? It stops those incidents from happening.

So outside, can we think of things like external letterboxes? I know in other countries we have that a lot more than in the uk.

That's a very simple thing to stop dogs and people coming into contact with each other. If we're thinking dogs on dogs, how can we design spaces so that dogs don't have to come or dogs and people don't have to pass closely to each other?

Are there multiple routes around an environmental area? Are there fences where someone could let a dog off on that bit and someone could let a dog off in that bit, but there's a fence so they can't physically, although they've both got freedom, they can't physically get to each other. So just. It's hard. You have to think quite creatively and you have to work across multiple agencies in the area as well because you're talking about design of environments and things like that.

So this is a multi agency approach as well as trying to educate people about what's appropriate behavior.

Is it appropriate to let your dog off, lead in there and approach other dogs and things? There is some owner education. It's more about changing what's socially normal. The social norms, education can target that. I think, you know, we've changed the social norms around picking up poo, for example. Generally most people do actually do that now.

So that's been fairly successful in the way that's been done. But if we designed dogs not to poo in the first place, that would have solved that problem. But anyway. Not always as easy. I love that question.

Z: Yeah, it's a great question, and I love your answer and the way that you're emphasizing different levels and how, you know, it could start with license balancing of dog breeders and kind of following on from that.

It could start with encouraging people even more to go to puppy class and socialize their puppies, because, you know, we know how important it is to socialize puppies between three and about 12 to 14 weeks.

And also it's not just for the puppies. It is also a way in which the dog guardian is getting education about training and caring for their puppy as well. So that's really helpful.

And then that would work even better if we had licensing of dog trainers to make sure that they're only using modern methods, modern approaches, that they're up to date with what to do, that they're not recommending aversives like shock collars and so on, which have risks for the dog's welfare and including the risk of increased aggression as well.

So there's all these things, as you say, all these different layers that we can look at. I think another one we could think about.

You mentioned the design of the environment. So one thing we have in Canada and the U.S. especially is we have dog parks, because there are lots of places where dogs can't go off leash in the same way as they can in England.

So I think the design of those spaces is important and having guidelines on using those spaces as well, so that people know what they should do. Having a separate small dog area compared to the large dog area, for example, as well, I think that's another one.

And another one which is probably more relevant to North America than to England, would be tethering and encouraging people not to tether dogs, not to let people leave their dogs tied up on a tether outside, because then they're not getting experiences with other people. They're kind of isolated, and they can really become quite protective of the area. And I know that's. That's a risk factor for people getting bitten is if the tethered dog escapes or someone comes too close to the tethered dog, so they're in reach as well.

So that would be another thing. There's so much to say here. I mean, this is. I mean, you've done such a lot of research in this area, Carri, you must have like a million things that you could say.

C: I mean, the one that people often bring up in terms of this is things like breed specific legislation. And I think it would be. Yeah, we should probably mention that generally if we think about modifying the hazard in theory, that should potentially help.

The problem is it doesn't tend to work in practice. It's different breeds. The legislated against breeds tend to not actually have a higher risk of, of biting.

Whereas actually when we do look at studies, it tends to be maybe things like dachshunds and Chihuahuas and cocker spaniels that have the high, higher bite risk, not the ones that you would think.

But then each study slightly disagrees with each other, which of these breeds. So generally we know that all dogs can bite whatever the breed. And within those breeds there's massive variation in temperament as well.

So the breed is, is a bit of a red herring in that sense where things like breed specific legislation, if someone was trying to introduce that as a policy where it has some potential logic is it's. It's not about stopping bites from happening, it's about reducing the intensity of the injury if a bite occurs.

So large powerful breeds that are going to cause you a lot more damage if they bite you than say the Pug, Chihuahua, the Cockapoo, for example. But the challenge is, but those bites are so rare in the first place and it's so difficult to actually practically enforce breed specific legislation, identify dogs as being parts of these breeds.

The dogs that are these breeds often are unregistered in the first place anyway because they're not supposed to be there because they're banned anyway. It's. Most of the literature just says that.

I can see why in theory, coming from an injury prevention background, now people might think logically this should be an approach. In practice it tends to not work. And actually the emphasis on all breeds and what can we do with environmental design, owner awareness and education, breeding for temperament and good breeding within all breeds, that's going to be much more effective.

Z: Yeah, I think that's important to know. Thank you for mentioning that.

K: Yeah, I admit I had the exact same thought as both of you.

Well, I think it's been mentioned by both of you breeding. I think if we breed for dogs who are friendly with other dogs, that would do a great part, you know, in this and then also puppy classes and then not Just like, oh, let's have more puppy classes. 

But if I'm thinking like from someone who works, say, in an administrative position or has kind of administrative authority within a municipal government, can you please have spaces for puppy classes? It's really hard to find spaces. So make spaces where dogs are allowed in classes. Maybe hire a positive reinforcement dog trainer to teach puppy classes.

And then if people take puppy classes, give them a discount on their dog licensing fee. You know, like, there's just some. There's lots of ways to make puppy classes, which I think are one really good way of helping to ensure that dogs who might be a little iffy with other dogs get, you know, really get a lot more padding in a really protected environment. 

And it's in a safe environment. The floors are swabbed, you know, and it's taught by somebody who can identify, oh, you know, what, this one puppy, you know, there may be problems, and we need to sort of get working on that while they're still in their socialization period. And it will take 10 minutes instead of a fearful adult dog that it might take weeks and weeks and you might never get to the same result.

Right. So I think, you know, setting that up as how can we get more puppies? How can we create a culture where positive reinforcement puppy classes that focus on dog, dog play and good, well supervised dog, dog play. You know, I think that would, that would be one of my pieces of cheese. I don't know anything about the other stuff. I'm like, oh, that's really, that's really cool to hear about all of these, like, environmental ways we can structure safety.

But that would be one where as a. Someone who's had puppies recently, within the last couple years, it would be lovely. 

Okay, so we have another anonymous question for dog owners who have been bitten by their own dogs. Have you heard of any studies about certain therapies that may help them with post trauma or with PTSD developed from these experiences?

Of course, a good understanding of why the dog may bite is really important, including how to read dog's body language that can help one feel more secure for the future.

But I guess really the question is how can we sort of get over this when our dog has. Has bitten us and it's been a traumatic event? We'll start with Carri on that one.

C: Yes. Well, not, not as clinical psychologists here. I think that's another caveat for this one that we should have read out in the beginning.

And are we assuming here that they still have the dog? Because I think how you would deal with the. With psychologically how you could approach it. There may be some similarity, but there might be differences to whether the dog is still around or not.

Because you've got to. If you've got to live with the dog as well, that that complicates things, doesn't it? Personally, I would have a team working with a good psychologist and a good dog trainer behaviorist within that situation.

You know, for things like anxiety things. You know, like we do desensitization and conditioning as psychologists. You can do gradual exposure therapy and things. But they did mention PTSD and trauma which is going to need a slightly more trauma based therapy approaches to that.

There is like trauma based cognitive behavior therapies as well that that can be done. And I think is it EDMR or something? There's, there's some eye movement desensitization that's in the last few years that people are finding is really helpful with, with trauma.

But yeah, complex when it's your own dog that that's done that. I think when I haven't done behavior consultations for a long time because research and teaching has taken over my life.

But I think one of the important things when I was working with behavior clients was it's very easy for us as humans to be all consumed by what we perceive as negative in the relationship and the animal.

So trying to remember the good things about your pet and what they're good at and what's great about your relationship and trying to sort of mend that relationship a little bit through that by doing what's safe together and what you can trust them with again.

That's why I think working very closely with a behaviorist on this in order to get that sense of trust at a sensible level back. Because we don't want to be completely trusting, do we?

Because we know that this dog. It's not that all dogs have a likelihood of biting. We know this, that one definitely is capable of it.

So trying to work through where you can trust that dog and where you can build your relationship together in a safe way personally. But yeah, really interesting question.

Z: It is. I don't think I have a huge lot to add really. I mean I'm also not a clinical psychologist and I think it is something that a clinical psychologist will be able to help with.

And also given that, you know, if this dog is still in the home also I think you would want to be working with an animal behaviorist or veterinary behaviorist dog trainer, someone who is going to be able to help you with that.

And you mentioned learning the body language too, and I think that is helpful as well. But in terms of the trauma from having been bitten, I mean, it's awful. I've never been actually bitten by a dog.

I've been as a child, I was terrified of dogs. And I remember what it was like to feel terrified of, of a dog. And I think it's really important to seek help, especially if you're still having to live with this dog.

I think that's like an added dimension of it being quite difficult to deal with. So I think that's something for a psychologist.

K: Yeah, I would, I would agree. And I would almost say to another thing that was. Separated this out into sort of different piles in my mind is did the. Was the bite injurious or was, you know, like some dog bites are horrifically injurious.

And that to me is like, you definitely need a care team. Like, we recommend care teams for our dogs all the time. We want a vet, we want a trainer on board, you know, so I think sort of saying, hey, I need to lean on some other people to help me through this is absolutely reasonable.

And I think in the case where that it was a non injurious bite, which many bites are, I have been bitten more than once. I feel like I shouldn't admit that, but, oh, I have. Pinned in the face.

And I think if. If we're operating under one of like the really pernicious mythologies that dog, dogs, good dogs don't bite, you know, or that that's just, that's just not the case.

Like a non injurious dog bite is kind of dog language. So I think learning, you know, a little bit more about how dogs communicate and yeah, absolutely. Don't, don't set yourself up for another bite. Take care of yourself, take care of your dog's needs.

Give everybody more joy and safety, for sure. But I think if, if you're in that position where you got a non injurious fight and you're feeling like your relationship with your dog has been really damaged, I think, I think there can be a path forward by learning about how dogs communicate, you know, and then doing a forgiving yourself and forgiving your dog, you know, is. Can also be really, just really helpful. Say like, okay, my, yeah, I did something stupid.

I've done stupid things with my dogs and got the consequences, you know, and I've forgiven myself. And then having to do that a little bit extra work to forgive your dog can be maybe it's not right for this case.

But if it is right, it can be really helpful. And it can, I think it can really help to start to repair that relationship. Because there's, there's a breakdown in a relationship that can happen when, when a person gets bitten by their dog who, you know, they're like, don't you love me? Good Dogs don't bite. I thought you maybe that it's, it's more complex, you know, And I think allowing your, your dog, allowing yourself to see your dog as their own adult organism with desires and, and, you know, all of this saying and communication ability, that doesn't really suit us, but we have to respect that. That's how they communicate, you know,

I think can also be helpful. So I throw that out there as a possibility.

So we have another question from, from Julia. Can you cover why dogs will bite their own tail when stressed, bored and how to prevent this? So we're going off on a totally different tangent, which I love.

Let's start with Zazie on this one.

Z: Yeah, so this is a different one. And yes, sometimes dogs can bite their tails excessively.

And this is something that you should take the dog to a veterinarian for because there can be medical issues involved in this. And we, none of us are vets, so we can't really speak to that. So that is something to know.

And the other thing is that because I wrote in WAG about how Bodger used to spin in circles and bite his tail when he came to join us. And we assumed that was because he came from a background of neglect.

And we were very lucky it wasn't medical and it went away when he had this more enriching life. So enrichment is a really important thing. It's very important that dogs have things to do.

Some dogs need a lot more to do than others. But there's a whole host of different things that you can do to give your dogs lots of enrichment and activities.

And that's important to know as well. So providing games, toys, training, walks, and so on are important as well. But it would be something to speak to a vet about for sure. Carri, do you have anything to add?

C: Yeah, I mean, enrichment was my first. First thoughts as well.

And whether it's. It's pain related because, you know, when you just. I know I have a bad back and when I'm distracted doing things during the day, I can kind of can ignore some of it, but it's at those down times or when I'm lying there at night or something that when you're not as distracted.

That could be the moment where that really niggling annoying pain and it might not be the tail, it could be the back, could be anything. So really worth again getting that checked out.

I mean I have, we did have a family border collie that she didn't bite a tail but she learned to play her self like imaginary games. So I mean she's highly, highly intelligent. Got from the local farm.

Thry were. My parents are very upset. They just lost a dog. It, you know, with hindsight they shouldn't have got this working border collie in a busy family household where there wasn't, you know, a lot of time for her and she would play imaginary games with her, you know, with bringing her paws up to her face and pretending to bite them or,

or like pretending to be scared of her little, little piggy toys and running away from it and then running up to it and things like that. So I think sometimes that level of enrichment that some dog breeds need, that mental stimulation, not physical, they can't. You know, I've got a working cocker spaniel. You can't tie that thing physically.

You've got to do it mentally so and you know, real challenging mental stuff. So what sort of training and dog sports and things might really suit a dog like that?

Once we've checked out pain and things obviously first but so that if they've got like they've just been to an hour's class where they've done this amazing brain work, they're just probably then going to be like whoa, I am done, I'm zonked.

And so things like that might really help depending on the breed.

K: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. I would do pain rule out first and then. Yeah, I think enrichment is such a good one and there's so many great options of like really fun online classes right now you can do to teach super fun tricks. We've had some on the podcast before for sure.


So our first Q and A question, which I think is very interesting and very like, you know, hot topicy. Kathy asks what is the best way to work with a dog that bites small children around 2 year old children.

So Carri, I'll punt this hot potato to you first. Hot potato?

C: Yeah. Short but sweet that one. Um, okay. Yeah. It really depends. It depends on the context.

I would highly be thinking about management.

So can we, you know, how is. When is this dog able to come across small children? And we need to highly, highly manage that so that we are not in a situation where they are getting to the point where this dog is feeling the need to bite them.

And it depends why with children that the dog has a problem.

It could be that it's fearful of children because unless your dog is kind of, unless it's a puppy, they've grown up around kids or you've had a lot of small kids around when they're younger, it might not be something that they've been so intensely in contact with.

Until, for example, there's often a lot of dog bites that happen at grandma's house and the kids around. And, you know, this dog probably didn't really know kids very well until kids appeared in the family.

And then suddenly for intense periods, they're at the house for a couple of days at a time even, and then they disappear again.

So is the dog worried about it or is it more of an excitement? Predatory things, because young kids can run around, scream, shout, jump around, which could worry dogs, but it could also very much excite them. And looking at the dog bite data from Alderhey Children's Hospital, for example, which I'm analyzing at the moment, the most common situation actually where kids are getting bitten is when they're playing with a dog and it's all got too exciting. 

And we, and we tend not to think about that as a bite because it wasn't intentional, but it absolutely caused puncture wounds, may or may even require surgery.

The child had to go to the hospital. Technically it is, it is a bite. And how can we manage the arousal levels of children and dogs together? So I would definitely, absolutely seek the advice of behaviorists.

Put management in baby goats everywhere. They cannot physically come into contact with each other until you know or you don't invite a load of kids around to your house for a party.

If you don't have kids, for example, try and make sure that you've got those physical management in whilst you work with the behaviorist to try and work out exactly what, what the challenge is for your particular dog, which will then follow how, how the best way to deal with it.

K: Absolutely. Zazie, do you have any.

Z: I would just second that, really. I mean, this is potentially very serious. So it's not something that you want to be working on on your own. You need to get help from a qualified Professional and that management that Carri mentioned to make sure that it can't ever happen again, that the dog does not get to have contact with them, with the children is really, really important. So you've got to make sure that the children are safe.

K: Yeah, I would third that. Yeah, even a dog who has a very good. We've been speaking a little bit about inhibited bites but even if a dog is a very good inhibited bite, our society in general has a very low level of okayness when it comes to dogs biting children.

So an adult might be okay. You know, we were laughing earlier about how we've been bitten by dogs as adults, that that isn't acceptable when it comes to children. So there's, there's a sort of a different social allow allowance that dogs have.

So yeah, I would say manage starting right now and talk to qualified trainer.

C: I was bitten on the head as a 1 ish year old by our Jack Russell and he was blind in one eye. So we think I crawled up to him and went to touch him on the side that he was blind whilst my mum was out of the room for a second.

That's how quickly it happens. And even like you say, if the dog's not, even if it's a sort of play biting, all it takes is for the kid to pull their foot or hand away at the wrong moment and that's a tear by accident, if you want to call it an accident.

So that could still be serious. Yeah.

So I think I'm gonna do some massaging of the questions that I think I'm seeing that are left. We have two types and I think we're not going to be able to get into either type in any kind of detail.

So I think just sort of a quick maybe some pointers for people about reading that they could do. The first type of question is how can we tell if dogs are being predatory? Which I know you just mentioned Carri. So it kind of leads into that versus I'm scared. I want you to go, you know, one is get in my mouth and one is get away from my body.

So how can we tell if our dogs are showing one behavior or the other or a mashup? So maybe we'll start with that and then we'll move on to this reactivity question which is about a training style type question. So Carri, if you want to start with that one, how can we tell if our dogs are being predatory or, or fearful? You know.

C:  Yeah, I think different breeds do have different styles as to what it might be. I mean all dogs can obviously get. Get fearful. But it was interesting that the question that came up about the predatory was this predatory type aggression with what they were observing, you know, a real sort of intense stare and run and bite and, you know, trying to get to things to bite, to bite them, and ended up running in and buying a child.

And then when they added more, it was Belgian Malinois. And, you know, okay, yeah.

And I think this is the challenge with some of the bull breeds as well. You know, those that are bred to, you know, Belgian Malinois and things are bred to do bite work. And bull breeds are bred to grab things and hang onto them and shake them.

So those sorts of styles of biting could show that it's a more predatory thing. And the dog's body language as well, so much more tense.

A high tail, the stare, you know, as he went through quite a few of these earlier, compared to, you know, more. A more fearful dog would be showing often quite subtle signs that you just don't notice until you know them and then you can't unsee them.

So licking their lips a lot, yawning a lot. Like, even when they shouldn't really that be tired, they shouldn't really be that thirsty or anything, they're just excessively yawning, licking their lips, turning their head away, turning their body away, trying to walk away, raising a front paw.

If you see two dogs, if you watch two dogs meet each other for the first time that don't know each other, they'll come along sideways, their heads will be slightly turned to the side, and they'll have raised a front paw.

That. That sort of tentative. I'm really not sure about this.

And as humans, we just, we kind of miss a lot of that subtle stuff. They're telling us that they're a bit overwhelmed. A classic one that people miss is the dog wanted me to stroke its belly.

The dog is rolled onto its back again. Often a collie type might be rolled onto its back showing its belly, and the person goes, oh, wants a belly rub, puts her hand down, boom. Gets nailed. 

The dog didn't want a belly rub. It was just exposing its most vulnerable parts, often quite still in the way they're doing it. Some dogs do want a belly rub, and they're all floppy, showing you their belly because they've learned that belly rubs are nice. But that's quite different from a dog sort of lying on their side and back quite still, exposing the most vulnerable part, saying, please don't.

Don't hurt me. But every dog is different And I think you do need to kind of learn your own dog, but also learn your breed and what their tendencies might be.

Z: Yeah. And I'll just quickly add, I think this really shows how useful it is to learn dog's body language, because all of these signs that Carri mentioned, some of them, a lot of people just completely miss them. And as she said, once you're used to seeing them, you see them all the time.

And, you know, you're just perceiving dogs very, very differently. And it takes practice to get there, but it's really worth paying a lot of attention to your dog and not just thinking about, is my dog afraid in this moment?

But also I think sometimes because people tend to think no. So it can help to think, is this a situation where other dogs might be afraid? Like you're at the vet or something? And then you can say, ah, okay, actually, maybe my dog is afraid after all. And just pay really close attention to the body language.

K: I would. The one thing I would add for dogs who aren't in the predatory zone but are in the get away from me zone with other dogs is the eye, the heart eye.

And I think people don't necessarily see that until you've had it pointed out in a couple pictures. So I would pop on the Internet and look for heart eye as, you know, a dog training sort of phrase.

And once you see it, and once you see it in your dog, it becomes very obvious, and your brain will start to sort of check in on that all the time.

And it can be an early warning sign for dogs. If dogs have been punished out of. Out of aggression, it can be something that they still maintain. And for some dogs who are really like sort of still waters run deep kind of dogs, it can be one of the only signs that you'll see before they're like, whoa, this dog has been too close for too long, and I'm starting to fight now.

So that. That would be one thing that I would categorize that as a dog who is in the fearful or in the sort of get away from me zone. Um, but yeah, I think checking out the, you know, sort of looking at dog body language, it will help you determine if it was predatory versus fear.

But also the fact that in some rare cases, a dog may start out in a fearful zone, and then something happens. Maybe it's sort of the behavior of the other dog or it's a behavior of the child, like you're saying or playing, that can sort of switch on.

Dogs are predators, they're social predators, they predate upon other animals to get food. So it's keeping that in mind and keeping the kids and small dogs, you know, safe from that kind of behavior.

And it's not just the end food bit because that's, it's part of the whole sequence. So it's the chase. Chase and grab is where a lot of dog bites happen to runners, to cyclists, to little children running past a fence and things. It's an instinctive. I've got to chase and grab at that moving thing, even if they wouldn't have eaten it if they got it, if you know what, you know what I mean? 

C: Yeah, yeah. But sometimes, sometimes it. I have known of, of cases. If you talk to like Jim Crosby, who's done fatality cases, there have been dogs who have, have predated because they've been that poorly look after, looked after and that they are hungry and they go the whole, the whole way in obviously rare cases. But it can, it can happen.

K: Yeah. Okay, so we only have five minutes. So I'm going to quickly say we've had a couple of questions about people who have reactive dogs on leash and they want to know what kind of techniques or what kind of training.

So if you would just say, like, you know, here's some great resources for these people. Or maybe Zazie, we need to do a whole session on leash reactivity. Coming up, another Ask Me Anything.

So I'll start with Zazie on this one.

Z: We could do. I was also wondering if we could persuade Carri to do another one of these with us sometime because we've got lots of questions and we could even do one on dog walking as well.

So that might be fun. Yeah. So I think always a good dog trainer is a good resource.

I've got a lot of things in Bark! which are good resources on reactivity. There is a website, Care for Reactive Dogs, that also has lots of useful information on how to deal with them as well.

K: Perfect. Carri, your book too, The Happy Dog Owner.

C: Yes, I do have a book, the Happy Dog Owner, which, which I mean, it tries not to give specific advice about how to deal with specific problems, but there's some general approaches I think with my own dogs when have been reactive and on Unleashed, and I talk about these in the book,

I tend to think, what does your dog really, really love and how can that appear magically every time another dog appears on the horizon and how can you pair those things together so that you're changing the emotion of the dog?

K: And the only thing I would add is keep in mind that for dogs who are friendly to other dogs, but also reactive on leash, that play first can be a really, really good way of starting your training.

So consider it as like, how do I step towards what I want? Which is a dog who hasn't been playing, who can walk by another dog? And start with, let's let our dogs play for half an hour first and then practice safe walks and then slowly reduce it and you will.

That can be very handy. Cause you get a dog who's then like, kind of chilled out about dogs, you know, instead of a dog who's like, I haven't seen a dog in 23 hours, you know.

So now let's move on the last couple minutes of our session, and we're gonna have Zazie and Carri talk about their amazing books. So we'll start with Carri.

C: Yeah. So two books.

One most suitable to this session is Dog Bites: A Multidisciplinary Perspective. So there's about 40 different chapters from all the experts over the world about every single different aspect of dog bites.

Because, you know, it's very multidisciplinary. There's obviously the behavior side, but there's a human side. There's law, legislation, there's interventions, There's. There's all sorts. There's forensic investigations.

So even if you're an owner, you might find that interesting. But if you were our dog professional, you. You will hopefully find that really useful.

And then to have something that's a bit more accessible for the general dog owner who's interested. I wrote The Happy Dog Owner, which is science. Me. Yeah. But mixed with stories and anecdotes as well about the mission within. It is how can we maximize their welfare and maximize our wellbeing benefits and reach this kind of happy medium?

How can we make our lives better whilst having dogs? It's not all about them in my mind. We've got to also enjoy owning them. So how can we bring those two things together in a way that's good. For both of them? 

Z: Yeah. And it's a really wonderful book. I highly recommend it.

K: Zazie, you want to talk about your books?

Yeah. So to give my. I've got a book about cats as well. Purr. But I've got two dog books. One, the newest one, is Bark! The Science of Helping Your Anxious, Fearful or Reactive Dog.

And that's for anyone whose dog is reactive or shy or nervous or just for anyone who wants to know more about dog training as well, because there's a lot of information in there. 

And my first book is Wag: The Science of Making Your Dog Happy and that's for anyone who wants to understand their dog better.

And it ends with a checklist for a happy dog to help you figure out some ideas for things you can do to make your dog even happier.

C: Excellent book, excellent book.

Z: Thank you.

C: And I basically refer to it in my book and say, go read that to find out more about the dog welfare side of things.

Z: Yeah. And all of these books are available from all good bookstores, as the saying goes, so you can look those up. If you want to support us, please get our books and tell your friends and family about our books as well.

And so I want to end on a big, big thank you to Carri for joining us today and sharing your expertise with us. And than thank you to Kristi for always being such a wonderful co host.

And a huge thank you to all of the audience and for the incredible questions that you submitted. This has been really interesting, some really complicated, complex, thoughtful discussions that we've had.

So thank you for all of those questions. We've taken note that we didn't quite get to cover all the reactivity ones, so we'll think of running something in future. So stay on my email list to make sure that you're the first to hear about future events.



This transcript has been lightly edited for content and style.

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