Reactive and Fearful Dogs: Your Questions Answered

Watch or listen to the Ask Me Anything about reactive, fearful, and anxious dogs with Zazie Todd, PhD, and Kristi Benson, CTC.

By Zazie Todd, PhD

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We recorded this Ask Me Anything to celebrate the launch in paperback of my book Bark! The Science of Helping Your Anxious, Fearful, or Reactive Dog, which is available wherever books are sold.

Watch the conversation on Youtube or below, listen wherever you get your podcasts (Apple, Spotify) or below, or scroll down to read a transcript.

Reactive and fearful dogs: Your questions answered

We hosted an Ask Me Anything on anxious, fearful, and reactive dogs. You asked some incredible questions, and this is the result.

We talked about:

•     How to find the starting place for working with anxious dogs
•     Helping dogs who are afraid of elevators
•     Fear of strangers
•     Helping reactive dogs in tricky environments like apartment buildings and cities
•     Reactivity to other dogs
•     Fear of loud noises
•     How the unfortunate side effects of shock collars can persist after training is over
•     How to persuade people not to use aversives
•     and more!

Also mentioned in this episode: Understanding resource guarding in dogs (and how to fix it) with Lisa Skavienski (episode 8) (audio, video)

Thank you to everyone who sent in questions for this episode and/or who attended the live event. If you'd like to see more events like this, let us know!

Get Bark!

Answering questions about reactive, fearful, and anxious dogs

Z: I just have to say one more thing, which is that this obviously is not a behavior consult, so we can't give specific advice on your specific dog because we would have to ask you a whole ton more questions on that.

But we can give you lots and lots of general tips and talk about what kinds of things are useful. So hopefully we can give you lots of useful information.

K: So our first question is Debbie, who asks what is the difference between fear, anxiety, and reactivity?

Z: I think this is a really great question to start with. Fear is our response to something which is dangerous, dangerous, or which we perceive to actually be dangerous. And that's important because fear sometimes is a very helpful response. It's important to know it's not necessarily pathological.

Fear is important because it can keep us safe. If we're out walking and we see a black bear, in my case, potentially a grizzly bear, in Kristi's case, that fear response will help us to say stay safe.

It will help us to know what to do in that moment. So that's really important. Of course, when we're thinking about dogs, we may not understand why they're afraid of something, and that that doesn't necessarily matter because the important thing is to recognize that they are afraid.

So in terms of anxiety, that's a more general kind of feeling. There isn't something there that is actually dangerous. Now it's a bit difficult. We can't necessarily tell what they perceive to be dangerous. So there may be times when we're not absolutely sure which one it is.

But anxiety can kind of be like anxious of everything, worried about everything all of the time. So it can be really quite difficult for dogs who are anxious. They can really, really stress, struggle kind of all of the time, not just when something is there that they are afraid of.

And then reactive is one of those terms that we use to describe dogs who are barking, lunging, growling, maybe trying to bite or even biting on leash in response to other people or other dogs. And that's a really interesting one because very often that is because of fear and anxiety, but not always. Sometimes that can be because of frustration, and that would be a frustration over wanting to meet the other person or especially wanting to meet the other dog. 

So sometimes you can get that reactivity in a dog who is pro social, loves to play with other dogs, but because they're on leash and that is preventing them from reaching the other dog, they feel frustrated and it kind of bubbles over into arousal and being reactive. So with those kinds of dogs, sometimes you don't know which it is. It can be really hard to tell.

But you can ask questions like, do they normally play well with other dogs? Well, then perhaps it's frustration. Whereas if they don't play well with other dogs, then more likely it's actually a fear or anxiety. And if you're not sure, and this applies to all of the questions we get today, seek help from your veterinarian and or a good dog trainer as well.

K: Yeah, I remember Jean [Donaldson] told me once, because I don't have a lot of anxiety. But I think we were traveling and she was having some anxiety and about one thing and I said, you know, should I just change that, so that's not the case? 

And she said, Kristi, anxiety exists first and then it seeks a target. And it really was like, oh, it was such a epiphany moment for me. Like, oh, that makes so much sense. Anxiety is a feeling that you have and then you're kind of like, what, what is it? Oh, there's something it can jump onto, but it's not, you know, to me I'd be like, oh, there is the grizzly footprint. This is actually a scary thing in my environment.

So yeah, I thought that was an eye opening way to frame it.

Z: Yeah, yeah, I think that's really helpful.

K: Yeah. David and Mary ask. We are adopting our foster dog who's 1 year and 9 months old. He is on Fluoxetine for general anxiety and Apoquel for both food and environmental allergies.

When I read about treating anxiety, it is often for specific fears like strangers, loud noises and car rides. But I have seen little about how to form a plan to best deal with general anxiety.

What advice can you give about planning how to handle general anxiety? Of course, our dog has all those specific fears to deal with as well.

Z: I think that's a really great question. And one of the things I love about this question and some of the other questions that I know we're going to get to is that the person has already been to their vet and they've spoken to their vet and I'll hasten to add,

I'm not a vet, Kristi's not a vet. So we can't speak to the veterinary side of things. But it's so important with a fearful or anxious dog, if you're struggling, your dog is struggling, that you speak to your vet and see if they can help. Because what those meds can do is help to bring the levels of anxiety down to a level at which you can work with the dog and do kinds of training.

But I think this question is speaking to the need to help dogs feel safe. So with an anxious or fearful dog, the most important thing for you to do is to help that dog to feel safe.

And often that involves what we call management. So it means making lots of changes to the environment so that the dog doesn't have to see or come into contact with things that they are afraid of or which make them anxious. And obviously, that can be lots and lots of different things.

So one of the things that you can do is make sure that the dog has a safe space. And I recommend this for all dogs. But it's especially important for the anxious and fearful dogs.

And a safe space is a space that is theirs, that they can go to when they want, that they come away from when they want, that you will never go and force them out of or shut them into. So, for example, it could be a crate, but it can't be a crate that you're ever going to shut them in. They always have to be free to come and go from this space as they wish.

It could be a dog bed. It could be a settee or a chair that you just let them use. It could even be a whole room. If you've got a big house and you want to give them a room that they can go to. And the important thing is that everybody in the house knows that this is the dog's space and that they must never, ever disturb the dog if they're there.

Now, if you've got children in the home or you've got people who, for one reason or another, cannot follow instructions, that means that you have to set things up so that that person is kept at a distance. So that might be using a pet gate, for example, to keep children away from where the dog might be, or it might mean that you are supervising, or in some cases, it might be that you have adults who you cannot trust to follow that advice. And then you don't leave those adults alone with the dog because you know you can't trust them to let the dog have that safe space.

So this might be a big change to your setup, but it's something that's really important for the dog.

And when I was writing Bark!, I actually spoke to Professor Daniel Mills at the University of Lincoln, who's done a lot of work. He's a veterinary behaviorist. He's done a lot of work, obviously, on fears and anxieties. 

And he told me that for some of the dogs he sees, which are dogs who are really struggling, even though they're really struggling, simply having a safe space and being able to use it over a period of several weeks has been enough to make a huge difference to the dog and to their fears and anxieties.

And so that becomes a really important thing that you can do for your dog. And I think that's the main, probably the most important thing. And then the other thing is just to think about all the things that your dog might be afraid of or might be anxious of.

Loud noises, sudden changes in the environment, strangers coming, and think, what can you do to protect them from those things? Which might mean to try and stop those things from happening.

It might mean putting a sign up outside your home saying, do not ring the doorbell. Please text me when you're here. Because the doorbell will set them off, because they think it means that a person is coming and they're frightened of that.

And lots of things like that. And depending on the setup of your home and your everyday life, there are probably lots of things that you can do to help make sure that your dog is not having to meet the things that they're afraid of.

I think those are probably the most important things.

K: And it doesn't even necessarily need to be a loud noise. I know some dogs are very intimidated by, like, beeping from certain things. And the noises from vacuums. You know, Soleil, one of our dogs, is really upset by wind, which is, you know, not loud, but definitely something that's hard to get away from. And then there's a shooting range close by, so it's not even very loud, but she can hear when they're shooting.

And her special space is to go tuck herself under the tub. So when she's in there, I'll sometimes come and, you know, turn on some music to try and sort of drown out the other noise or use a white noise app.

Z: Yeah. I think it makes such a difference for a dog to have a space that they can go to. And I think we've got a question coming later, or maybe it's even next about safe spaces as well.

I mean, it's a really big thing to set up for your dog and make sure that they have the freedom to come and go from that place.

K: Yeah. So Caroline asks. My dog is fearful and reactive to people coming in or out of the elevator. 

Z: I think this is a common problem for people who live in condos and apartment buildings. And so one of the things that we like to do with fearful dogs, whatever they're afraid of, is try to desensitize them to the thing that they're afraid of. 

So in this case, people coming out of the elevator. And the way that we do that, well, we would also be doing some counter conditioning as well, which means having amazing snacks.

I like to call them the ultimate snacks. So a piece of sausage, pieces of cheese, something that your dog really, really loves. And you're going to make sure that every time someone appears from the elevator, your dog is always, always going to get an amazing snack.

But you can also desensitize a little bit by being at a distance from the elevator when you're working on this. So however far away you can get from the elevator, it depends on the space you've got available. But pick the furthest point at which you can start to do this.

And you can also break it down a little bit by recruiting a friend to help so that the person who steps out of the elevator is someone who your dog knows and likes.

So it's someone your dog likes to meet, and also someone who will follow your instructions and won't mind spending half an hour or whatever riding up and down the elevator, stepping out, saying hi, you giving the dog lots and lots of cheese, then they go back down in the elevator and then come up and do it all again.

And for a lot of these fears, we're thinking about ways in which we can break things down into little components that we can work on separately.

So making it someone who your dog knows and likes is one of the ways you can break it down.

Keeping your distance from the elevator door as much as you can is another way in which you can break it down. And then, because counter conditioning works best when the dog gets a lovely surprise, really nice food every single time that someone steps out of an elevator, whether it's your friend who you've recruited to work on it, or if it's actually, actually an absolute stranger. 

And if it's someone who steps out and makes rude comments, just ignore all of that and keep doing what you're doing. You know, because people don't always understand the work that you're doing with a fearful dog. But over time, it will make a big difference.

And then another thing to add, this is one of those situations where you can't avoid the elevator, you can't avoid people coming out. So it is also possibly worth speaking to your vet, because those situations where you can't avoid the dog's fears are times when vets tell me they can provide psychoactive medication that can help just to bring that fear down to a level that you can work at. I don't know if you've got anything to add, Kristi.

K: Yeah, I know. I agree. That is a very tough one because we can't. Typically, one of the things we like doing when we have dogs who are fearful is to really suspend the thing that makes them scared.

But you can't do that because this is how you get in and out of the house. I mean, if you can go up and down the stairs, if that's easier for your dog, but if you're living way up, you know, high in a building, or if you can't take the stairs, or if your dog can't take the stairs and you're really stuck.

So I guess it can be useful to sort of to not lie to the dog. If you're just gonna have to barrel through and, you know, do. Do your training sessions on one day and then just barrel through knowing that there might be a sort of an episode that your dog is. Is, you know, incapable of handling, I would probably sort of mention to your dog something like, sorry, dog. 

You know, like, I'm sorry, but this is the time where we really, you know, there's going to be, you know, so that they can get a sense of, like, readiness, you know, and when. When it's the training time, they won't be, you know, in that moment of readiness, they'll be like, oh, it's training. Okay. I like training. 

You know, eventually, hopefully, we get to that point where it's all training. You know, they're. You never have to apologize to your dog. Cause they're just like, I love the elevator. I love it when people come out. I love it when people come in. That kind of thing.

Z: Yeah, yeah. And I thought actually of another thing that it might also be to do with the elevator noise. And usually there'll be a person coming out anyway, but that's something else that you can think about.

So you could call the elevator, then stand back and hope that no one steps out and you just get the noise and the sight of the door zone opening and you feed the cheese or the chicken or whatever, anyway. And that's another thing that you can do to break it down.

K: Yeah. And if your, your dog is legitimately terrified, I would say reach out to a trainer for sure, because this is the kind of thing that they will be very good at helping at. Like, or if a dog is legitimately terrified and incapable of even getting near the elevator, we would probably be doing things like recording the sound of the elevator, you know, and playing it in a non elevator context.

So one of your fans asked, how would you help a dog who's anxious, avoidant of strangers and has only really attached to one person in the home?

Z: Yeah. And it's actually very common for dogs to be afraid of strangers. So we're going to follow the same principles that we just talked about. We're going to try and break this down first of all, so that we can do desensitization and counter conditioning.

So we're going to have those amazing treats ready and we're gonna hopefully pick a friend who can work with us and a friend who is gonna follow instructions and who is not gonna say, oh, I'm really good with dogs and want to come up and pet your dog.

That kind of person who, you know, some people love dogs so much they find it hard not to do that. That kind of person is not the ideal friend to help in this particular situation, however good a friend they are at other times. So someone who will follow your instructions.

And of course, while you're working on this, we have that management aspect of trying to make sure the dog does not have to meet strangers if at all possible, and you keep those strangers at a distance. 

So if you're walking and someone's coming close, find a way, cross over to the other side of the road or go walk somewhere where it's quieter or something like that to try and avoid people coming up. Or if someone's actually trying to come and be friendly, you can just make some excuse and say, sorry, my dog doesn't want to meet anyone today.

Sometimes people even pretend that their dog is sick and say, sorry, my dog is sick, it wouldn't be right for you to meet them today. Because that sometimes can stop people quicker than if you say, you know, my dog doesn't want to. They're like, oh, I love dogs. They think they're going to like them anyway.

So having something that you can say for that and then so find a friend and have them, you Want them to be at a distance and you to feed lots and lots of treats while the friend is at a distance.

And it should be you being the one feeding the treats. Often one of the mistakes that people make is that they ask the friend or the stranger to come and give the treats.

But that means they have to come up quite close to the dog, and you want to keep that distance as much as you can. So it's going to be the dog sees your friend at a safe distance, you feed lots and lots of treats, then you ask the friend to go away, and then the friend pops back again and you do it again. And you can do that lots and lots of times. 

And over time, they should learn to like this person, and this person will be able to start moving closer. So you pay close attention to your dog's body language. And you really want them to be happy all of the time.

They shouldn't be looking stressed. So you want a nice, happy, wiggly dog dog the whole time, basically saying, oh, good, I'm going to get lots and lots of treats. And gradually your friend will be able to get closer.

And then you can recruit another friend and do it again. And you can expect to have to do this with multiple friends before the dog starts to generalize. So maybe five or six other people before the dog starts to generalize and feel more comfortable around strangers generally. And during that time, ideally, you're going to be keeping other people away.

And then the other component of this is the people in the home. So you want to make sure that the other people in the home who the dog hasn't bonded with are very careful not to do anything that will stress the dog out.

So they might have to keep a distance from the dog, perhaps, or just ignore the dog. Maybe they'd be like, if they're being very attentive to the dog and going up and petting them, maybe the dog would prefer them not to do that.

So pay attention to the body language and make sure that the dog is feeling safe in their presence. And the person who's bonded with the dog can always give them treats while the other person's in the room.

Or they can get used to throwing treats in their direction, for example, so the dog can get nice treats without actually having to come up to that person.

And that can often help quite a bit. And sometimes people ask that person to do nice things with the dog. Like if the dog is comfortable going for a walk with them, then that's okay. That person can walk the dog and be responsible for some of the nice things that the dog does. I think that's the start.

K: Yeah, it's a tough one because it. It can make you feel really bad as a human if a dog doesn't love you, you know, and if it's your own dog. Yeah, it's very hard on the human psyche, I think, if a dog doesn't love you when you live with them.

So I think being very gentle with ourselves and with our family members too is a nice.

Z: Yes. I love that.

K: So Melissa asks, how can I desensitize my dog without reinforcing his triggers? He barks and lunges at a dog. At a car. Sorry. When we walk, I can distract him with scatter feeds if I anticipate a car prior to it getting close.

This hasn't reduced his level of reactivity when not employing this distraction. Oh, this is a great question for so many technical reasons, Zazie, this is a really great question. 

Z: When we do counter conditioning, there are some technical things that we need to pay attention to. So the way I would describe what you're currently doing, it sounds like management to help the dog get used to the car going past.

And when we're doing training, we need to make sure that the scary thing happens first. And it is what predicts the amazing treats coming.

So the thing that's considered scary predicts the ultimate snacks.

So you need to pay really close attention to the dog and make sure they've noticed that a car is coming and then very quickly give the treats. And that's a technical thing that a lot of people don't quite get right.

And it makes a big, big difference to how well your training works. So the thing that's considered scary predicts that ultimate snacks. It has to be that way around in order for it to work to help to reduce the fears.

Of course, again, you've got the issue that cars can be very hard to get away from. So it can actually be quite difficult to do this kind of training. So think about the places where you're going as well and think about where can you be at quite a distance.

Is there a car park, for example, or a park where you can be at a nice distance from other cars that you can use as a good location for training where it's going to be obvious to you when the dog can see that a car is coming and then you can very quickly give the treats and as soon as the car is gone, then you can stop.

That's probably the main technical thing. And this, again, this is something that applies to whatever the fear is. It doesn't just apply to cars. It could be the strangers. It could be people popping out of the elevator, or it could be loud noises or whatever.

The dog has to perceive the thing that they consider scary first, and then we give the amazing snacks. So it has to be a predictive relationship.

K:  Yeah. It has to be created about anticipation. Scary thing helps the dog anticipate the treats.

And I would also say for this specific example, your dog may be scared of cars, or this is a common case when dogs are actually not scared. They're feeling more in the predatory circulation suite of their behavioral profile.

So they may be like, a car. Awesome. I'm gonna get that car. I'm gonna chase it. So they bark and they lunge out of frustration for being unable to chase something that they want to chase.

If that's the case. Still a very trainable thing. But I would suggest reaching out to a trainer to get a training plan that sort of helps you to create a different.

That would be a time when we say, let's train the dog to do something else when they see a car. And would. A trainer will help you set up management and training and stuff to handle that.

So it may be fear or it may be like, right on, you know. 

Paula asks. Hi. We live in a big apartment complex with a lot of dogs. Our dog, Muppet, is afraid of bigger dogs and often alarm barks and generally freaks out when she sees them outside. It's easy to keep space between her and the dogs she's afraid of, but it's almost impossible in apartment hallways.

Even treats don't distract her. Is there anything we can do other than trying to hurry her along to get her away as fast as possible?

Z: Yeah. And again, as I think for all of these questions, we can see just how much people love their dogs and just how hard they're working to help their dog to feel safe and just, you know, just what they're doing. How much people are doing the right things already and trying to help their dog to feel safe and avoid. So it's wonderful that you're keeping the space from other dogs when you're outside.

And yes, in an apartment hallway, it is incredibly hard.

So one thing that can sometimes work as a management solution is to think about how you're delivering the treats, because treats can often be a distraction. But if you're just handing over pieces of hot dog or chicken, that's kind of a bit tricky sometimes to be fast enough.

But this is one of those situations where as a management thing, you can find liquid treats, so you can buy paste in tubes, or you can actually just make one yourself. And the easiest way to make it yourself is to get some pate, dog food or cat food, mix a bit of water in it and put it in a squeezy tube so that you can squeeze it out.

And then the dog can just be licking the treat all the time while you're going past the other dog. And that can be. That can sometimes work better because then it's continual, because the experience is a continual one. And for some dogs, the gaps between you handing over pieces of cheese can be enough that they start thinking, oh, my gosh, and start reacting.

So that's one thing that you can do there. And I think that can be quite helpful. One of the other things that people do sometimes with training, because this is a tight space and one of the ways in which you can break it down, sometimes people actually use like a stuffed dog for the training.

So like a big toy dog, basically. And although we know it's not a real dog, often a dog who is reactive will actually respond to it as if it's a real dog, which means that you can use it for training.

So a stuffed dog, they're kind of a bit stiff because they don't move, but at the same time, they're not yapping or growling, and they don't have a smell associated with them. So if you have a friend to help sometimes if, you know there's a time when the hallways are quiet, you can do some work in the hallway with a stuffed dog and use that as one way to break it down as well.

Also, I think keep on doing the work outside, because if you keep on doing that work outside and they get more and more. As they get more comfortable with dogs outside, then it becomes less of an issue in the tight space of the hallway where they have to be a bit closer, closer.

So keep doing the work outside, and ultimately it will generalize and you will be able to find that it gets easier to work on it in the hallways.

And I don't know how big this dog is, but with a little dog, there is nothing wrong with picking the little dog up and turning them around so that they can't see the other dog.

I sometimes do that with Pepper. He's my Shih Tzu. He's actually really good with most other dogs. But there are specifically some dogs in the neighborhood who are very big and who do not like him at all and are very reactive. And I just pick him up and turn him around so that he can't see those dogs. 

I mean, people laugh at you for being a little dog owner and doing that. But if it helps to keep your dog feeling safe, then go for it. Do it. Basically.

K: And I would add, there's nothing wrong with hurrying down the hallways or if there's two of you, sending the one person down to check the hallways to make sure there's no dogs.

Like, I mean, these are perfectly fine ways of, of handling this issue, especially during training. You know, keep the dog safe during training.

And I love the suggestion for a stuffed dog, but it's also, I think something that a trainer would probably start to bring into a training plan is if you know people who have big dogs who your dog is comfortable with to start using them and you know, training your dog to be comfortable walking by.

Oh, known big dog and then lesser known big dog, that kind of thing.

Z: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's one of the advantages of working with the trainer is that they find it easier, you know, they know people, so they will find it easier to do these setups and they probably will know someone with a big dog who is very calm, very friendly and who would be, you know, good to use for desensitization and counter conditioning training here.

K: And trainers also just don't mind looking kind of foolish in the hallway with the dog. Okay. It's very easy for us.

With your neighbor. Sorry, my trainer says that I have to do this. 

So Karen asks Hi and thank you, Zazie, for offering this session. My six year old Lab Border Collie Cross is basically a Border Collie in a Labrador onesie.

Z: I love that.

K: He is exceptionally easy to train, has amazing recall and is the most intelligent dog I've ever had. Sound perfect? Question mark.

Z: Yes. But?

K: He is extremely reactive to strangers and dogs. And it's the dog reactivity I can could do with advice for. He was friendly with dogs as a pup, but became choosy as he grew, but would always find one to play with. 

Since adulthood, he is very aggressive towards them. The only warning he gives is a brief growl before lunging. He has not bitten, but will roll the dog over and stand over it.

This is every dog, no matter size, breed or gender. He does not react in the way you'd expect, pulling on the lead and barking. Unless the dog reads his signals, they will be attacked.

I think it's fear. He will drool so much when nervous. I am not aware of anything that happened to him to make him like this. But imagine something did from his perspective.

He was checked for pain when the reactivity began and none was evident. He is the most amazing boy. Can he be helped, please? He is currently on fluoxetine and cannot be castrated due to anxiety. Thank you for reading this and best wishes.

Z: Well, again, this is another one of those questions, like all of the questions, where we can see that someone is an absolutely amazing, wonderful dog guardian and that a dog is lucky to have a guardian like you, who has been to the vet, who has thought about pain in this situation.

One thing it might be useful to know is that dogs often become less playful as they get older anyway. So that would not normally be like at this, to this point, but it is quite normal for dogs, as they get to about three years old, to be much more choosy about who they play with.

Whereas when they're young dogs, they'll play with all kinds of other dogs. You'll have rough and tumble play, you know, they'll be really happy with it. And then they get a little bit older and they kind of mature out of that.

So hopefully they'll mature out of that and still be comfortable being around other dogs. But they might be a bit more choosy about who they play with. They might only play with certain dogs who they know who they're well matched with and they might not want to play with other dogs.

So that's something that happens anyway. So that's probably not the cause of this, but it might be part of it. And then the other thing is, I mean, this, I think, is really a management situation in which it's important to stop, as far as possible, letting your dog be in situations where this might happen.

So think about all the times this has happened and say, what can you do to avoid those situations or change those situations such that your dog is not going to have those interactions with the other dog?

And then if you want to start working on reactivity, I think it's, it's a good idea to hire a dog trainer to be working with. They will be thrilled that you've already had a vet check for pain.

They'll be thrilled that you've already spoken to your vet about psychoactive meds as well. And it's much easier for a dog trainer to come and work with this kind of issue.

But in the meantime, and it may be all that you need to do, because sometimes just keeping the dog out of those situations is enough. And if that turns out to be enough, that's okay. You don't have to train. But I think it's important not to put your dog in these situations where they feel that. That they want to be attacking another dog because they're so uncomfortable.

K: Yeah. And I would say a trainer could probably. The trainer in me is coming up with a plan. Like, I think if you're somewhere where you can't easily manage, you could train your dog to, like, exit a situation. I mean, it sounds like your dog is very, very bright.

Training bright dogs is very fun. I could see something like, if it's while you're on leash to train the dog to say, another dog comes close to me, that's a cue to move to the other side and keep walking.

You know, you could. And then it turns it into like, a little bit more of a game. Like, oh, I get over here and I get a nice treat. I get one of Zazie's specialty treats when this happens.

So I think you could train your dog to exit that situation. But I agree, it doesn't sound to me like this dog wants to be around other dogs, which is fine. You know, once we all hit puberty, we don't love every other person that we meet, you know, even though we might have played much more generally when we were children too.

But yeah, I agree. I think management could be an easy fix. But there is also going to be training options, if you so desire.

Z: Yeah. And those training options can work really well. And it's a great idea to do that training not in the presence of other dogs, before you start to put it in place at a distance from another dog.

K: A very chill dog.

Z: Yes.

K: So Samantha asks. Three years ago, my Springador, now eight years old, was diagnosed with elbow dysplasia and osteoarthritis at the age of four and a half.

Aw. That's young.

And necessitating pain medication and surgery to repair two fractures in her left elbow with plates and screws. At the same time, she developed a noise phobia associated with pain, reacting to sounds such as bird scares, gunshots, fireworks, thunder, motorbikes, and often just general street noise. 

And despite seeing a behaviorist and being prescribed pexion, which also. Which is also used for epilepsy, the medication was ineffective, leading us to stop all related treatments after six months.

Over the past three years, her noise noise phobia has transformed into general anxiety about walks, causing her to stick to familiar routines and avoid new or previously loved walks. Once an extremely active dog, she now prefers staying home and refuses to get out of the car at places she once enjoyed like the beach,

making it extremely difficult to take her on holidays due to her anxiety, even in familiar settings, whilst also considering her controlled walking due to her condition. My question is, how can we manage her noise phobia anxiety to enjoy different walks again and introduce variety without adverse reactions?

Wow, this is a complex situation.

Z: It is. It's a very complex situation and I think my heart goes out to these people and their dog for managing, you know, all these medical issues.

So since I'm not a vet, I'm going to assume that all the medical issues are taken care of as best as can be. And I think it's very common that even when pain is an issue, a dog can kind of learn. And then you may still need to do some kinds of training.

And I think one thing is always to help make sure they're as comfortable as possible in the places that they are familiar with. And there is nothing actually wrong if that is what your dog wants to do. There is nothing wrong with keeping them in those familiar places all or most of the time and thinking about other ways to provide enrichment. 

So instead of walking in new places, it might be tricks training or it might be doing an online class or something like that with your dog, or finding lots of puzzle toys, food puzzle toys, and sniffing things that you can do with your dog to help to make sure that your dog is still getting lots and lots of enrichment, even if they can't be going to new places which they used to love.

I think that's one part of of it. Another thing is we don't know how whether any of this might be to do with no longer liking even getting into the car. Maybe that's something you can discuss with a vet if you think it would be helpful. Maybe trying, if you're trying new places, try and pick new places that are like the old places or that are extensions of the old places, like you go to somewhere you already are used to going and just try and walk a little bit in a different direction or something.

That's one way to kind of try and break it down.

I think with some fearful and anxious dogs, unfortunately you're never going to get them quite back to being like the dog that was friendly and confident to start with. So some of these dogs are never going to go to all kinds of new places and be happy and comfortable in that.

Some of them always will need some kinds of management and that's okay. It's just a case then of finding ways in which you can work with them in the space.

And because this is quite complex, I know we keep saying talk to a dog trainer and it will help. But I think especially for these more complex cases, sometimes because a dog trainer has so much experience and education behind them, it can make a big difference compared to what you're doing on your own. So that also I think can be worth thinking about in a case like this.

And I used to have a dog called Ghost and this was a long time ago and sometimes he would be reluctant to get, get in the car. He actually would be reluctant to get in the car to come home. And it was a long time ago and I actually spoke to a vet at that point to see was he in pain. And we tried him on one pain med and it didn't make a difference.

And now I know so much more and I think vets know so much more and I think we probably would have managed it differently now. So I think it is a case where we have learned a lot more about what to do with these kinds of cases and help.

So if you think it's worth it, it may just be worth talking to your vet again and checking if they think there is some kind of ongoing pain there and if they want to try pain meds and see if it helps. Even though you've already tried some of these other meds as well.

K: Yeah, I would, my talk to the talk to your vet again flag was definitely flying for this one. You know, talk to your vet and make it clear that you're willing to, you know, cough up financially to do rule outs for pain, especially high grade pain. 

And also, you know, something that has come up with my clients is that often one behavioral med doesn't help help, another one might. It's very, it's very typical for it to take a few, sometimes even in the same class, sometimes a whole different class, you know, so I would, I would talk to your vet, you know, again about just your willingness to try that and to see because this seems like this dog is, you know, their life could be probably made a little bit more joyful with some medical and training assistance, for sure. It's really heartbreaking.

Z: Yeah, it is. Yeah.

K: Okay, so another one of your fans asks. Hunting dog breeds seem to often be trained on E collars for recall and to correct behaviors in the home environment. These dogs can seem anxious and unable to easily settle down, especially when young. Does the continuous use of an E collar to discourage certain behaviors, even when not hunting, possibly make these dogs more anxious and unsettled?

Yes, but we love that question basically. All right.

Z: Yes. So we know from the research on aversive methods, including shock collars, that they do have risks for dog's welfare and those risks include making the dog more fearful and anxious and that that can carry over to other situations, not just into the training situation.

So there is for example, some research that shows that dogs trained with aversives are more pessimistic and this is tested using something called a cognitive bias test. But actually it's a measure of how the dog is feeling.

Oh, by pessimistic really you can break it down and say they mean pessimistic in terms of whether or not they think a bowl is going to contain chicken. They train the dog that chicken in one bowl always contains, sorry, one bowl always contains chicken, another one doesn't.

And then they put a bowl in an ambiguous situation and measure the speed at which the dog gets there. And so a pessimistic dog is going to take longer to get there because they're not optimistic that there'll be chicken in the bowl and that's a measure of their long term welfare.

So if dogs are trained with aversive methods, actually they are more pessimistic and then, and another way of thinking about it as well is in terms of the dog's welfare.

There is a model of dog's welfare called the Five Domains and that says that simply being in the presence of a person who has previously used aversive methods can make the dog feel nervous and anxious and can be a threat to the dog's welfare.

So unfortunately yes, this can generalize to other situations and it's a very good reason never to use aversive methods and never to use a shock to collar. And thank you for that question.

K: Yeah. And, and I would add that there is a big and growing community of people who aren't using shock collars in that type of training.

So do a google and, and, and find and you know, and get the same or better results with their dogs. So yeah, good things are afoot. 

Christine asks. I'm working with a family using harsh correction because the dog a normally affectionate, sociable, basic obedience trained ernadoodle, meaning Minnie takes items to her kennel and guards them viciously.

She's also reactive to dogs on leash walks. I'm trying to help the owner teach and learn drop. I've also recommended a medical consultation with a board certified behavioral vet. Note she is partially blind, born with microphthalmia in one eye and glaucoma. Developed in the other eye at six months old. Oh, that poor dog. This eye is completely bone and sightless. She sees forms and movements, light and dark. Dark.

This is an interesting qu. I'm already like, can I answer this one?

Z: Go on then. Go ahead, Kristi, go ahead.

K: She is reactive to, strange to her moving objects, dogs, people's voices, sounds when she can't see where it's coming from and what it is on walks she is guarding. Whoa. This just, this just goes on.

She also has weekly physical therapy for two and a half years from when her knee looks.

I need help to convince the owner without making him feel he's hurting her to stop using the dog version of a bear repellent spray in her face to get her to drop the item and let me teach him how to teach her to drop it.

So, yes, that is quite, quite the history there, Zazie.

Z: Yes, it is. And so I think definitely it is a good idea to convince the owner, if possible, to stop using aversives because unfortunately they only make things worse. Worse. A referral to a vet behaviorist hopefully would help to solve that problem because then it would be the VB who has to say stop using aversives and help solve the situation.

And because we know that there are medical issues here, I think whenever there are medical and behavioral issues intertwined, the vet behaviorists are the best people to go to because that's what their expertise and training is for.

It's really important with resource guarding not to keep taking things away from the dog and not to punish the dog because that only makes it worse. Worse. There's a lot of research that shows that that makes it worse as well as we have experience of that as well.

So teaching drop it is a really good thing to do. You also can specifically train the resource guarding. But when there is a risk of a dog biting, it's really important to do this with a trainer who has experience of these issues.

And I'm going to. You said you wanted to join in, Kristi, and I'm aware that we've got quite a few questions still to get through and not so much time, so I'm going to let you say what you wanted to say.

K: Oh, no, I, I, I was just gonna, yeah, say very similar. I think that, that having, if you have a family member, it's, it can be very useful to bring in another expert and throw us under the bus. Oh, I'm, I'm sorry. You know, dad, whoever it is, the trainer said we can't spray this dog in the face anymore.

You know, it's, this is making it worse. Who would have thought?

And then you know, so put the blame somewhere else because it can be very tricky. Family is, is a, this is a whole other. They're asking webinar maybe but, but yeah, I would reach out for an expert here and yeah, you're absolutely gonna be able to train this dog. And it probably for the, you know, the guarding, it probably will be a relatively straightforward thing and it won't take too, too, too long. But I would suggest getting a trainer involved for sure.

Z: Yeah. And there is some info on that in Bark!. So another way to throw us under the bus would be say read this chapter on resource guarding in Bark!. And it says that you, you shouldn't be using aversives.

So I think sometimes people need to hear it from multiple sources before they will change what they're doing. And so it can help to, you know, provide multiple sources to them.

K: Yeah. So Christine asks broader question about fearful Bernadoodle and fear possession, aggression. So another guarding case. Why does a dog take objects like a TV remote or phone and guard it in her kennel?

Z: Isn't it interesting that dogs do this? And one time Kristi and I actually recorded a podcast with Lisa Skavienski who takes of Dog Educated who takes a lot of guarding cases. And she's also quoted in Bark! and she says that one of the commonest things that she gets dogs guarding is a used tissue or used hanky.

We don't know why they decide they want these things, but they like if they're things that important to us, I think that makes it more valuable to them regarding perspective.

So that can be one thing. But, but really who knows? I mean when they're guarding food it's kind of obvious. You think yes, they're going to want, they're going to want to eat. They're scared of losing their food when it's an object or maybe they like to play with it or maybe they know that it's important to us and at some level there's some attention seeking going on here.

Luckily we don't need to know why in order to be able to work on it. We can teach them drop it or we can teach them to stop guarding and to allow an approach and we can teach people to do like an emergency food scatter or swapping an object with it inst.

And there are lots of different ways of dealing with it and who knows what's going on in dogs minds.

K: So one of your fans asked, is there ever an anxious or fearful dog that is beyond saving. When is behavioral euthanasia the only possible treatment?

Z: I think this is a really tough question, and I think there is very often a huge lot that we can do to make a big, big, big difference.

But sometimes some of that involves expensive things like visiting the vet and spending money on medication. And sometimes people are reluctant or unwilling or unable to do that. And sometimes it involves making big changes to, like, the situation in the house.

And I would say so, first of all, when you should see a vet, anytime you're concerned that pain might be an issue, but also anytime you're struggling or anytime you can't bring things down to a level where the dog is not afraid.

So you have to keep having the dog in those situations where basically they're getting flooded. And these days, luckily, we are much, much better. Vets are so much better at dealing with this.

They seem to know so much more about it. And I've seen wonderful cases where that's made such a big, big difference that maybe 10, 15 years ago, it might not have been possible to do that, or the person might not have been willing to do that. So I think that's made a huge difference. 

And so really, really there might be cases where safety is an issue. If there are dog bites, especially, then there are going to be local bylaws that make a difference there. And you might not have a choice in the matter anyway. The bylaws might insist on what is going to happen.

And then, actually, when I was writing my first book, Wag, I spoke to my vet, and he said something about how his job is to protect your relationship with your pet.

And so anytime you are struggling so much, those will be times when he would say that euthanasia might be on the table. As well as the dog's quality of life, it's also thinking about the person's quality of life.

So these can be really difficult situations. I think anyone who is struggling, reach out for help sooner rather than later, because the sooner you reach out for help, the easier it is to make a difference. If you wait. People sometimes wait hoping that things will get better. And unfortunately, often they just get worse while you're waiting because you're not actually able to address the fears in those situations.

So see what you can do. Reach out for help. And luckily, I think cases like this, they do sometimes happen, but they're not very common. It might be different in a shelter environment where many shelters have to think about space instead.

And so they're thinking, is this a dog adoptable? Well, if not, then we need to give the space to a dog who is adoptable. And that's kind of a slightly different conversation than if it's an individual's dog.

K: Yeah, absolutely complex stuff.

So Kathleen asks if my three year old hound mix is still afraid of so many things, including just coming into the house after one and a half years here, and she does not respond to even the most delicious bribes, what can I do to help her trust us more? She is currently on a low dose of Trazodone and occasionally gabapentin. Previously on Prozac. And Clonidine.

Z: So again, this is really great that you've spoken to the veterinarian and as Kristi said, sometimes, sometimes it can take cycling through different meds before you find the level that or the medication that is just right for your dog.

So if you feel that it's not working enough, don't be concerned about speaking to your vet again. Feel quite happy to go and talk to your vet and have that conversation.

But then also think about some of those things to do with safety that we were talking about at the beginning. So make sure your dog does have a safe space if they're not coming into the house very much, perhaps really close to the door where they can get outside if they want to. And also maybe think of the outside as their safe space and that can be really important.

And then if a dog is not taking those really great treats, often that is a sign that they actually still are anxious or fearful. So just think if there are other things in your environment that maybe you could change a little bit to reduce stress in some way.

So maybe actually only have one room in your home that's open to them. Block off the rest of the house so they don't get anxious going into other parts of the house where there might be surprises or whatever, whatever. Don't force them to do things unless you absolutely have to.

You know, always give them a choice as much as possible, including a choice of petting them. And sometimes this might mean like it's really hard to have to wait until the dog comes to you wanting to be petted.

But sometimes that's what you have to do and that will help them learn to trust you and to feel safe with you. I don't know if you've got anything to add to that, Kristi?

K: No, no, I'm in agreement with everything you say. I think giving them the, the option of where they're the most comfortable. Speaking with your vet again about other options that might be helpful and different doses.

Z: Yeah, yeah. 

K: And then I think it's easy to sort of miss the fact that some dogs find a lot of human contact. Lots of dogs love, like, I could go and squish Soleil up into a ball and she would be so happy and she would sit. But you know, her, her younger brother, Archer, he doesn't love being squished. And lots of human contact. Like he'll ask for it when he wants it. 

One of my previous dogs, Timber, just generally did not super like patting that much, but if we force it on him all the time, it would be so I think recognizing that sometimes what we find to be joyful and fun, interacting with the dog isn't joyful and fun for that dog. So to give them the choice to say yes or no.

Even though it's hard.

Z: It is.

K: I'm not sure we're gonna be able to get any of the great questions that have been coming in from the participants today. 

So Kathy asks, despite distance from, say, a UPS trip truck, how do we get them to look when the high value treat doesn't work and greater distance does not? So it's like a technical training question for. Sounds like she's training look at that.

Z: Yes. So very often if they're not looking at not paying attention to the high value treats, it does actually mean that this is too difficult a situation.

So, okay, you've. You're saying a great big distance from the UPS doesn't work. So can you start training other kinds of trucks, like smaller trucks first, that even if they're trucks that your dog is not paying attention to, start associating those trucks with amazing treats and start building up from there. That's one way to do it. 

And if you can get more distance, like try and get really big distance because like you could be the other end of a football field maybe, and you could work from that distance. And that is worth trying as well.

K: Right. And also to keep in mind that even if it's late, if you're training your dog to do a behavior like look. And they do it even after the truck has gone by. You can still say, okay, so the step I'm at right now, it doesn't matter if the truck's already gone by. I can still, you know, give the dog a treat for an attempt.

Yeah. And just absolutely over time, it will get better. Yeah.

Z: Yes. And there is actually a story of that in Bark! of me doing that with my own dog. Couldn't get a situation where he felt safe, still offered the treats. He wouldn't take them, but still offered them. And there came a point when he would. So, you know, if that's where you have to start, that's where you have to start.

K: Right. We're all just doing our best.

Z: Yep.

K: Someone else asks. I am about to start trying to desensitize my very anxious and touch sensitive rescue out of like a silent laser for home therapy. He's so wary of any touch. He also has a startle response.

And then, oh, it was a question about order of events, burning question laser than beef pieces or both at the same time.

Z: So you need the thing that might be scary to predict the amazing treats. So it has to come first and then the treat.

And touch sensitivity can be really tricky. And again, this is one of those cases where don't touch the dog unless you absolutely have to. And there are ways in which you can train them to come close to your hand.

There's a technique called passive hand, which I'm going to let you look up because I don't think we have time to go into it. But that can be really helpful with a dog who is touch sensitive.

K: Right. And we have another touch sensitive question. A field line Golden Retriever who only likes to be pet on the head. And if I pet her back or try to look at her tummy to see why she's scratching, or if I try and remove a burr, she will sometimes growl, but then quickly jumps up and wags her tail and acts friendly. 

She's also shy around other dogs and sometimes people. But I think that that has to be a question for another time as the hours click down. I live in a family neighborhood with lots of kids and families and it worries me.

Z: Yeah. So it's really good that you're aware of this issue and you've noticed and so only pet the dog in the places where they like to be petted.

Sometimes when dogs are touch sensitive, pain might be an issue. So that's a conversation to have with your vet as well.

And always give them a choice. And sometimes I've done this a lot with cats actually as well. Sometimes just always giving them a choice is the thing that makes a difference too.

So always let them choose. Like you can put your hands and offer to see if they want it and if they don't come to you for affection, fine. You have to accept that even though it's not what we like, we have to accept what the dog likes. So very just as a very quick answer that as well. 

K: Yeah. And I would say if the dog is going to be around kids and other adults who are going to touch them no matter what, I would train the heck out of that and get them comfortable even they're not necessarily going to love it and turn into a shmoopy dog like Soleil.

But you can train your dog to be more comfortable being touched. But that's going to take a training plan and some effort. So I would go ahead and, and you know, and really consider getting in touch with the trainer and having them help you work through that as a desensitization and counter conditioning exercise.

K: Yeah. Yeah.

So I think. Oh, we have one minute left. So sadly this other great question we're going to have to skip. It's about dogs who are barking at the TV and unable to tell if they are actually upset or just barking for a treat. So professional barker.

But I'm going to just instead move on to asking our final question here from Katja who, who asks, I'd love to know if you have any plans for an audio version of the bark.

Z: So that actually is something I don't know. That's a question for my publisher. So I have to hope that my publisher is going to arrange this and I would love it if they do, but it depends on them.

This transcript has been lightly edited for content and style.

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