Teenage Dogs (and What to Do About Them) with Tina Spring
When a cute puppy turns into a terrible teen, many people struggle. We chat with dog trainer Tina Spring about what to do.
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Content warning: Suicidal ideation comes up in this conversation. Help is available. In Canada or the US, call or text 988 for the suicide crisis helpline. In the UK, the Samaritans are on 116 123.
Watch episode 40 of the Pawsitive Post in Conversation on Youtube, listen wherever you get your podcasts (Apple, Spotify), or scroll down to read a transcript of the highlights.
Teenage dogs (and what to do about them) with Tina Spring
When a cute puppy turns into a terrible teen, many people struggle. Tina Spring of Sit Happens joins us to talk about adolescent canines and how she helps people with their teenage dog in a place where many pups miss out on puppy class. Tina is also the smart, funny, and kind host of Your Family Dog podcast.
We talked about:
- the importance of puppy class and how to socialize your puppy
- why Tina offers an adolescent puppy class
- the issues that people have as their puppy becomes a teen
- the importance of food treats and seeing things through your puppy's eyes
- what Tina says when people are struggling with their adolescent dog
- similarities between parenting teenage puppies and teenage humans
- burnout and trauma in dog training
- Your Family Dog podcast and how Tina got involved
Zazie Todd and Marc Bekoff on Your Family Dog
Zazie on YFD to talk about anxious dogs and happy dogs
YFD with Emily Priestley part 1 and part 2
YFD on choosing between a puppy and an adult dog
The husbandry project from the Academy for Dog Trainers
The Beast Keepers by Julie Fudge Smith
Colleen Pelar website and books, including Puppy Training for Kids
Cooperative Care by Deborah Jones
The book recommended by Tina is Talking to Strangers by Malcolm Gladwell.
About Tina: Tina Spring started training dogs as a child in 1979 in 4H. Her love of dogs and of teaching led her to a career working with dogs and families. She published her first book, 90 Days to the Perfect Puppy, in 2005 and it’s now part of her online puppy rearing program that bears the same name. She is the owner of Sit Happens Dog Training & Behavior, LLC in Athens, Georgia, where she does in person and online consults and specializes in fear and aggression and the special relationships between kids & dogs. She’s also the co-host of the Your Family Dog podcast, which is a really fun and excellent podcast.
Your Family Dog podcast (also on Youtube)
Highlights of the conversation on teenage dogs
Z: Today we're talking about adolescent dogs and I think it would be remiss of us though, not to start by saying something a little bit about what happens before adolescence. So what people do with their puppy, because that's kind of really important as well, and it all feeds into what is going to happen when you have an adolescent dog.
So what do you tell your clients about the importance of puppy class?
T: Well, I would say that a lot of times here in Georgia, our parvo risk is so high that veterinarians are very concerned about parvo risk and many times will encourage families to wait until puppies are 16 weeks and are fully vaccinated before they would encourage them to go to a puppy class, which is a difficult situation.
I absolutely understand the parvo risk and want and do safeguard the safety of the puppies in our care and on our service. That being said, I disinfect the room with rescue from the chair rails down before every single puppy class. I encourage owners to carry their puppy in or bring them in in a grocery cart with a towel in the bottom so that they're not walking through the parking lot and not walking through the store that hosts our classes.
So we mitigate the risk as much as we can. And I do worry that there's a much greater risk, in my experience, of a puppy losing their life due to issues from missing out on socialization and an excellent puppy class than that they die of parvo or rabies or distemper.
So it's a difficult balance, I think, for everyone. Every trainer faces it, every breeder faces it. How do we balance these two things? This need to keep our young puppies safe from disease, but also prepare them for the 16 or 18 years of life on the planet that will happen outside of that, during a developmental time that we don't get back. Like, once it's gone, it's gone.
"We can either be frustrated with them about it, or we can experience all this stuff for the first time again through their eyes."
So I spend a lot of time talking to families about, okay, how do we think about all of the risks? I mean, after all, we send our children to school even though they're not fully vaccinated, so how do we mitigate those risks so that we're reducing them as close as we can to zero while taking advantage of all of the great things that happen with a puppy class?
Now, if a family's absolutely, "We're not doing that", for whatever reason, then I talk to them about the online puppy class because that gives them the opportunity to bring socialization in. It deals deeply with how to take your puppy out on the road safely so that they are getting all of that experience.
So I do try to have two answers, but do I think an online program can recreate what I'm doing in a group class with all those dynamics? No. It's very good. But it's not the same as having those really rich experiences of being in person and also the benefit to the family of having a professional with eyes right there, real life, ready to jump in and support them and help them and. And give them feedback about what we're observing and how we might adjust things.
K: Yeah, I can't remember which trainer it was. Maybe Zazie will, but I've heard someone call puppy classes behavioral inoculation or behavioral vaccination. So, like, you're vaccinating the puppies against later behavioral issues, which, like you said, are deadly, can be deadly to dogs through behavioral euthanasia and definitely cause welfare issues for our adult dogs.
So I agree. I think it's so important to have these conversations and to just be open, you know, with our clients and anyone I know who's running a well run puppy class, I'm so thankful. Always so thankful.
T: Well, and I would also say that there's a huge difference between a puppy class that's going on in a park, in a public park where all sorts of animals are in and out, especially one that has dog park or is a part of it where we don't know the vaccination or behavior status of any of the animals that are going in and out of those places, versus in a box, in a store, concrete floors that are polished, places that we really can, like your vet's office, use the same cleaners that veterinarians are using to diminish the chances.
It's never going to be zero, but we can do the best we can to diminish the chances and mitigate risk. You're right, Kristi. What a puppy class, a good well run puppy class is doing is preventing, hopefully, situations that can happen later that are tremendously potentially dangerous.
A big example I get is resource guarding. Lots of puppies are always putting everything in their mouth. How a family handles that is going to significantly impact, in many ways, their relationship with that dog. And understanding that taking something out of a Border Collie's mouth is different than taking something out of a Golden Retriever's mouth or Rottie's mouth, or a livestock guardian dog or livestock guardian dog cross's mouth, because those things are part of the predatory cycle for some of those animals.
So having something in their mouth could be intrinsically rewarding. And we're actually punishing them when we're giving them food, which immediately starts to break down in their mouth over the sock that they wanted to just tote around and that doesn't break down in their mouth quite as quickly.
I just think there are a lot of easy things to adjust and support a family with that ends up with a much better outcome and a dog that's a much better ambassador for the dog's family, for dogs in general and for their individual breeds. So really trying to help people optimize their puppy is something we strive for.
Now, I am clear that that means that I don't have as much private work and that is a lovely problem to have. Like, it would be great if no one needed me.
K: Yeah, it would be nice if breeders and puppy class trainers put adult dog trainers out of business. Except for like dancing with your dog or there's lots of fun stuff, maybe. All the fun things that would be great.
Well, I think that leads nicely actually into our bigger conversation about adolescent dogs. Because you're talking about, we have the puppies and I think people do have this strong urge to protect their puppies. You know, they get a lot of like scary stuff, scary information about disease, but then all of a sudden, it seems to come about quite quickly when you have a puppy that's turning from a taco and grass smelling little squish thing into an adolescent dog.
"It's really difficult to be an adolescent. Your feet aren't where you left them when you went to bed last night."
Sometimes it can be a little bit like, it can come quicker than you think. And also it can come with behaviors that a dog guardian might not be expecting. So we know that you run an adolescent puppy class, which I think is just phenomenal. It follows on from your puppy class. What made you decide to offer these classes and what age range do you target?
T: So I'll start with the last question. It's four months to eight months. So from that 16 weeks where typically most families are going to see, that is when their puppy starts losing teeth and when they start barking at everything and suddenly deciding that the fire hydrant in front of the house that they've walked past 10,000 times is a dragon and that we're all going to die.
So it picks them up there and then typically at eight months. I do worry a little bit about younger puppies being bullied by bigger puppies and developmentally further along puppies. And I definitely don't want a Lord of the Flies kind of situation. Like I don't want to create problems for people.
So typically puppies age out somewhere between six and eight months. It just depends on the puppy. For example, we have a mastiff puppy in class who is developing very slowly as far as her behavioral development. But of course her body is massive.
Now the great news is she is a fantastic ambassador for her breed and self governs beautifully with younger puppies. So I don't have a worry about Holly taking part in young puppy classes, even kindergarten puppy classes, because she is so careful with them and so kind and teaches them to play really beautifully.
So I started with the end. The reason I started running an adolescent puppy class is that what I was seeing is these families would go through our puppy class and end up with a phenomenal outcome. They're working as a great team. They understand their puppy. Their puppy is full of wonder and joy, and they're handling things overall in a very positive way. And we've made it right. Like, we're through itty bitty kindergarten puppyhood.
And then the families, I would say, well, we have these other classes coming up. And they would go, you know what? We think we're good. And they would go away for a period of time, and then they would come back with a puppy that was nearly in a relationship that was nearly unrecognizable from the one that they had when I last saw them.
And it was heartbreaking. So they came back with suddenly a puppy that is not listening to them in any way, shape, form, or fashion. It's just like, you are not the boss of me. You are not my mom. I am not listening to you. They're frustrated. The puppy's crazy frustrated.
And I realized watching this dynamic over many, many years took me way too long to figure it out, that we were letting them down at arguably the second most important time. So many of the tools that we provided them with in that kindergarten puppy class weren't working quite the same way and weren't serving them the same way.
The same way that if all of our moms called us every morning and said, did you change your underwear? Did you brush your teeth? Did you do two full minutes of toothbrushing? We would be like, mom, stop. Seriously, I'm an adult now.
Even as teenagers, we would have taken that as an affront. Right? We see that in human teenagers. Well, the same sort of thing happens with our puppies. And so if you're still trying to micromanage them and put pink bows in their hair, they may be goth and have sworn off pink bows forever.
And they're amazing, and they're remarkable, and they're sweet, and they're kind, and they're fun, funny, and they're so stinking smart. And instead of arguing with them through adolescence, we can just explore the world through their eyes, through adolescence, and be their best friend at a time they really need a best friend because they think they know all the things, and they don't know all the things.
We want to help them. So we started the adolescent puppy class almost three years ago, and it's been a huge hit. And it's caught those families that their veterinarian said, and they listened to them, which I think is great and not putting vets down.
But for those families who decided, like, no, we're going to err on the side of caution, which I totally understand and accept, we had a place for them to start that was really just made for them. And for puppies, their puppies age.
Z: I find that really interesting. I'm really glad that you're getting those people coming into class. And I think we're lucky where I am because all of the vets recommend people go to puppy class because they know how important it is. But I think it's great that you've got an offering for people coming in then.
And I love how you're alluding to the relationship between the person and their puppy and how that's developing as well. I think that's so important. And I mean, one of the things we see or that rescues sometimes see is that the teenage dog is when someone is likely to have problems and may be at risk of surrendering their dog or deciding they can't cope anymore.
So it's great to have a class that people can go to to kind of help reinforce all the things they need to know, the behaviors, how to teach the different behaviors that you might like your dog to know.
But what kind of behavior issues do you most commonly see in adolescent dogs? And I want to ask as well, is it varying, then, between those who actually did socialize their puppy properly, and those who didn't come to one of the puppy classes?
T: Yes, that is one of the wonderful blessings is that if I have puppies in the adolescent class who have kind of grown up with this system and then transition seamlessly into adolescent puppy class, they're really good anchors, and so are their families.
Part of what my drive has been from the beginning is really community. Creating a community like we do for parenting, where people like, I don't have all the answers. I don't claim to have all the answers. I have a lot of answers. Some of them probably good. So a lot of what happens in our classes, there's a lot of room for families to talk to one another and get to know one another.
And because my classes run as open enrollment, we can catch them whenever they want to start. So today, someone will bring an adolescent puppy in for a first adolescent puppy class, and the puppy will be crazy, overtired and overstimulated and frustrated and not listening to anything, like all the things the human is trying to do the puppy is like, I am not listening to you today. Today is not your day.
And so we just catch up where they are and say, okay, let's start with just one thing. Let's just get one thing captured that starts building your relationship together. So it gives me an in to say, if we want to change the puppy, we have to change what we're doing. Like, nothing's going to change all on its own.
And we have the benefit of other class participants saying, listen, I know my puppy was like that two weeks ago. And I listened to her and did all the crazy stuff she encouraged me to do. And now you're jealous that my puppy is doing things that your puppy is like, no, you're not the boss of me about.
We also do a certain amount of switching out puppies if it's appropriate to do. So let's say I have four in my puppy classes. All of my classes typically are limited to four because I can't juggle more than that at this stage without an assistant. They often are working as teams that I'm like, okay, you're this team, you're that team. And next time, you're that team, and you're this team.
But we sometimes I'm like, okay, pass your puppy if the puppies are stable enough, pass the puppy to the person to your left. And they might work your puppy and you might work someone else's puppy for the whole 45 minutes until playtime, right? If appropriate.
So one, they're going to be softer and less frustrated with a novel puppy than the puppy that's been making them pull their hair out. So I get better practice from the people. And the puppies are way more willing and interested in talking to someone who's not their mom.
They'll do anything for me. And so it tends to create this microcosm where the people go, well, you're the dog trainer, so of course you're magic. Well, then they learn that if they take Susie's puppy, Susie's puppy thinks they're magic, too. Just their puppy doesn't think they're magic.
It gives the puppy a positive experience and some socialization in a really positive, managed way. It allows me to see what is the dynamic between the handler and the puppy versus what's just the handler stuff and what's just the puppy stuff. So it gives me good input, too.
But it always surprises people, and they always appreciate their puppy more when they get their puppy back. So they soften with them, too.
I think the biggest thing with adolescents is to learn not to join every disagreement you're invited to, whether it's human adolescents or whether it's puppies. Like I might say to a teenager, well, can you tell me more about that? I'm not sure I understand yet.
There are behaviorally ways to do that with our puppies, too, that we're like, hey, how's your day going, puppy? And is today a day you're cutting molars and you're just grumpy and tired because, you know, you're cutting molars, and it's hard to be a puppy this day. So it softens all of it in a way that I find really beautiful.
I get the people who come in who are like, I just want my dog to do exactly what I tell him to do the exact moment I tell them to do it without any question. And those people generally leave having a much greater understanding of their puppy and much more cooperative with them and much less old school. Right? They're just doing what they were taught they were supposed to do, what I was taught that I was supposed to do.
Like, loving your dog was correcting them if they did XYZ, instead of understanding that behavior is communication and that my puppy's not necessarily being bad, they may just be having a really rough day, the same way that my adolescent teenager might get off the bus having had a bad day. And the last thing they need is for me to harp on them about something they need to talk through and figure out how to navigate the stuff that's going on in the bigger world.
I think it's so much similar and the tremendous inroads we've made to changing how we parent. Zazie, you and I have talked about this before. Like, my parents ruled with an iron fist. And growing up was not a very fun thing to do. To this kind of a newer form of parenting that is much more cooperative.
It's much more considered that we're teaching an individual, and they're not all cookie cutters. They're not all the same. And that it's hard. It's really difficult to be an adolescent. Your feet aren't where you left them when you went to bed last night. So, you know, now they're a half an inch further from you, and we've got to figure all those pieces out.
So getting the classes to really give voices to the individual puppies and what they're going through, I find is very helpful.
Z: I think feet not being where you left them the night before must especially have applied to Kristi's dog, Archer, because he's so big. He must have grown so much, like, just in a single day.
K: He was as big as an adult dog when we got them as puppies. A 40 pound puppy. You're like, whoa. But very puppy. So it was really kind of discordant in your mind because you look at him and his whole shape and his, his whole behavioral suite was all just puppy, puppy, puppy. But then he was so big and his face was very puppy and his teeth were like little, teeny tiny.
Yeah, it was fun. I'm not saying I'd want to do it again, but it was fun.
T: Well, so that's the funny thing, when Julie and I were talking on the podcast [Your Family Dog], we were talking about getting a new dog and, like, puppy versus adolescent versus adult dog and all of those pieces. The more dog trainers I talk to, the more we're like, yeah, not another puppy. Like, I'll just go get an adult dog. That's what I want.
Because we're busy, right. And we're up to our eyeballs in it now. Do I still enjoy raising puppies? Yes, but I have to prepare myself. It's complicated and I'm really invested in doing it well, which means I need to prepare.
K: Yeah. It's gratifying. It is like a responsibility, but like a beautiful responsibility because you have such a huge say in the adult dog they're going to become.
T: Yeah, well, and I don't know, like, none of us here are 18, right. I'm pretty sure Kristi's 22. But I'm old. Like, I'm old. So Christmas isn't as filled with joy as it was when I was eight. I've seen some stuff. I've survived some stuff.
So I think sometimes as adult humans, we walk through the world going, yeah, but that's just this. And. yeah, but that's just that. Well, when you have an adolescent puppy, that's the first time they've seen a hot air balloon. And they are positing that as a very colorful dragon. But it's a hot air balloon. Like, what are you overreacting about? We're just frustrated with that.
Like, why are you upset about the neighbor putting up 16 inflatables to celebrate the Holidays? And the puppy is like, there is a dragon in the neighbor's front yard. And you are acting like this is totally normal, right? So it's a little bit of the Rosetta stone, right? Like the Rosetta Bone between what this puppy is experiencing and they're experiencing things they literally never experienced before.
We can either be frustrated with them about it, or we can experience all this stuff for the first time again through their eyes. Like, I got to revisit the parent child relationship, being the parents and doing it really differently. And then, sadly, my daughter lives in Wyoming, so I don't get to see my grandkids. I desperately wish I did. And had a very close, strong, weekly, daily interactions with them.
But the interactions I do have, that's a third shot at that, right? That grandparent grandchild relationship is another slice at it. So even though it may not have gone great the first time, I learned what not to do, right? So that informed what to do, at least what to try with these different relationships.
And I kind of view puppy and adolescent puppies as that same thing. It's an opportunity to explore the world with a different lens and to just honor it, to just go, you're right, that is a cow, and you have never seen a squirrel that big before. So let's just take a moment and ponder the cow.
K: Not to keep coming back to talking about our big dog, Archer, but I was taking videos of him as a puppy. I was like, maybe it'll be useful to have socialization videos of him. And he was just so chill as a puppy.
Like, I was like, I'll just blow up a plastic bag and release it around him so we could see what, you know, that puppies might startle to this. He could not give a. He didn't care at all about anything. I was like, putting muzzles on him, flipping his toes, brushing him. He was very chill. I was like, who are you?
It was really fun. Gotta use a lot of treats.
T: Well, it sounds like you're a plan for the worst, hope for the best girl after my own heart, right? I'm very much the same way. Like, this could be really bad or this could be really magnificent, and it'll be fascinating to see which one I get today. So it is interesting to me.
Part of what I did in building the adolescent class is it's a hybrid, so it's a mix of many of the same exercises and experience we do in kindergarten. Like, we have a day called Explorer Puppy. It's actually a week where I fill the room with socialization stuff. It's just mayhem and foolishness.
And they're allowed to play because I really do think the best socialization just occurs kind of organically, where they're playing together and somebody steps on the wobble board, and then they go, whoa, that moved under my feet. And then another puppy figures out that the play tunnel is a wormhole that can port them from one side of the room to the other side of the room. And Rufus didn't see that coming, so I could sneak up behind him and pounce on him that way.
And so we get to see what the puppies are concerned about as adolescents. The puppies that went to kindergarten hopefully think all of this Explorer Puppy stuff is divine and hysterical and makes cookies happen. And the parents get to watch, and we get to talk it through and go, okay, so Rufus, I've noticed, has yet to go through the dragon esophagus that we more accurately know as the tunnel.
So we might take a few minutes and just help Rufus with that. Okay, everybody else is running through the tunnel, but Rufus is like, that's a hard No. Not doing the tunnel, thank you very much. Don't feel like being eaten by a dragon. So we might work on that.
Or if I have a puppy who I already know is kind of tactically sensitive to different flooring surfaces, I may incorporate in the play session some tarps and some bubble wrap and towels and artificial grass and just different things. Cardboard that slides under their feet. Or maybe a large cookie sheet with some water in it that if they roll into it, they land in a puddle.
As much as I can, I'm bringing these bigger experiences in that we can observe. And I'm like, dog trainer is a misnomer. I very rarely get to train a dog. The vast majority of the time, I'm training people to raise their dogs. That's what I'm doing now.
Do I occasionally get to train a dog? Yes, they're usually mine, but it's really amazing. I kind of want them to fall in love with it as much as I do, which I know isn't going to always happen. But just watching them, they're so interesting, they're so smart, and they have such a funny, engaging view of the world much of the time.
K: Earlier, you mentioned that dogs can sort of start to associate these things, like the tunnel as the dragon esophagus is hilarious. It's a hilarious framing with treats.
And I know that you sort of have instructions for your adolescent class participants that they should bring about 100 pea sized treats, including different varieties, which I love. I know Zazie and I both would probably be so delighted to hear about just the number of treats.
So tell us why it's important, do you think? The quantity, the size, the type of treats. And I will also put it out there that I used much bigger than pea sized treats for our puppies. I mean, a pea would just get stuck like here and you'd be like, where'd it go?
T: So we do laugh about Holly the mastiff puppy because she pretty regularly, like 10 minutes into play, treats are still falling out of her lips that she like cached. You know, she has 20 pea sized treats hidden in her jowls that she will slowly meter out to all of the other puppies while they're playing. And then she'll be like, oh, where'd that piece of chicken come from? I'm like, girlfriend, your face. It came from your face.
It's kind of like when I find a snack in my bra that I'm like, oh, there's a pretzel. I don't know what I was thinking. That that's why that's been itchy.
So, I mean, puppies are fun. Puppy class, adolescent puppy class, dog training should be fun. It should be fun for the people and it should be fun for the dogs. So it's learning like it's parenting. It really is. It's just, it's parenting. We don't set aside an hour a day to parent our kids. It's just more engaged than that.
And I think that we make a mistake as dog trainers making it all about obedience. Obedience is the least of it. If you have a great relationship with your puppy, guess what? You're going to know when you can call them and when they're way too engaged in the deer ****.
But you're going to know that. You're going to know when you need to go over and go, I know that's really yummy deer ****, isn't it? Come on. I know you don't want to leave it, but let's go. I have salmon for you in the house. That makes me accept kisses later instead of deer ****. That I'm not going to accept kisses.
I think the relationship piece is often put ahead of or behind the obedience piece. And guess what? If you don't have a relationship with me and you try to tell me what to do, good luck, because I have free will. And guess what? So does the puppy. So does the adult dog.
Knowing when's the right time to have the conversation with your dog is important. It's as important as the conversation. Because if you make it hammer and tongs in a big, huge fight, well, I don't want to spend my life, one, having to tell my dog what to do every minute of every day, for goodness sakes, I've got enough stuff to do. And two, I want my relationship with them to be strong enough that I get the benefit of the doubt and so do they.
And that we're cooperatively tackling the issues that may happen or the conflicts that might occur instead of we're hammering tongs about it and we're going to battle.
And I do see those poor people who come in with the adolescent 17 week old golden retriever puppy who is exhausted, hasn't slept more than eight hours in four months. And since they got it from the breeder, because for some reason, the interwebs tell everyone that if your puppy is overtired and hyperactive and not listening and putting in everything in their mouth, you absolutely must exercise them more.
So these puppies come in so, so exhausted and frustrated and they really just want a nap. And the only way they know to get it is to beat the tar out of their owner so that their owner gets mad at them. And notice I went from saying handler to owner. That was not an error. Right in that moment. That person is now in a mindset of being an owner, not being in the mindset set of being a handler and being that dog's best friend.
And so now they're escalating things, and then the puppy's escalating things. And I'm like, okay, y', all, we need a referee's whistle. Stop. Your puppy's just tired. Just give him a nap. Like, don't argue with them, Give them a nap.
And this time, people have no idea how much sleep dogs need. No idea.
Z: This is a time when, like, you switch to owner. And people can often feel like they are really struggling with their dog. And we were just talking about using treats in the training and socialization, and we know how important it is. But when someone is struggling, sometimes they forget that piece of information or they just don't know what to do.
So what do you tell people in those situations when they are struggling with their adolescent dog.
T: I usually start with, okay, so we need to be able to talk about nothing with our puppy before we can talk about something. So tell me something about your puppy that you absolutely adore. What's your favorite thing about your puppy? Like, I'll hear you.
And usually they have to start with all the things they don't like. But then I'm like, what do you really like? When you were picking this puppy out, what were your hopes and dreams? Where was your heart in all of this? And just kind of remind them that when they were an adolescent, they probably weren't so divine to their parents either, that that might have been a little bit of a difficult row to hope.
Did they do everything that their parents told them to do when they were teenagers? What mattered more, whether or not they cleaned their room or their relationship with their dad? Which mattered more in the big scheme of things? My bed being made on a Tuesday or that I knew that if I had an issue and I went to my paternal grandfather, that he would absolutely have magic for me and he would have my back.
And this is where I do think, so for me, it's God. If it's not God for you, that's totally okay. I'm not judging, like, I don't care how you get there. I care that you get there.
But for me it is maybe an understanding as to why my raising was so difficult was to inform this with these dogs and with adolescent kids too, that my parents would have said that the bed being made was more important. And it's probably part and parcel why as an adult, there's not much relationship there because they never took the time to figure out who Tina was.
They were more fixated on the tasks, the this, the that, the etiquette, the whatever. And they missed me in the process.
And I think we miss who our dogs are sometimes. And it is just frustration. The puppy is just as frustrated as they are. The human's getting hurt often physically. So I want to remedy that first.
Sometimes that means I'm like, what kind of food is he eating? I'll take him home, right? Sometimes I'm like, let me just take him home with me. I'll take them tonight. You can come get him at class tomorrow. It'll be great, right? Like, we're just going to give you a break.
Sit Happens does have a positive reinforcement board and train, which I think we're the only ones in the state of Georgia who do that. So we do have a puppy program for that. Sometimes a bigger intervention is a good fit and a good start.
And then other times, I'm just talking to them about, okay, today, all I want you to do for your puppy to get their food is to put their food in your pocket, and when you walk past them, whatever they're doing, toss them a piece of their food, smile at them and walk away. That's your assignment for overnight.
And guess what? The next day, they have a different relationship, right? So I talk about it because a lot of times I'm using human analogies to kind of teach these bigger concepts.
So imagine, listener, if the next time you came home from life, whatever you were doing, running errands, work, whatever, someone in your household immediately stopped what they were doing and greeted you and gave you a hug and a kiss and said, I'm so glad you're here. I missed you while you were gone.
Imagine how that would change your relationship, the variety of relationships in your life. If when someone arrived at my class, I didn't say anything, that's really different than me going, oh, my goodness, I get to spend time with you today. That's awesome. I'm going to have a great Thursday, right?
Some of this is how I can't instantaneously change a puppy, but I can change how we're responding, which will change the puppy.
That's usually my goal, is just triage at the beginning and hearing them and going, yes, it's very frustrating. I can hear you're doing an excellent job sharing with me all of your frustrations. And I'm listening to them, and they matter. These other things matter, too.
The very first lesson, we're going to get into sleep, we're going to get into nutrition, we're going to get into, okay, so if there was only one thing I could solve for you today, what would it be? And giving them tools. And we work on that in class.
So I'm like, does anyone else have this issue? If they're like, yes, then that becomes the lesson. Like yesterday in our master's level class--it's Bachelor, Master, PhD. I didn't create the program. Someone else did. I didn't name it. It's called masters.
And everybody wanted to know about toenails, with the exception of puppy number four, who wanted to know about ear cleaning. These were the issues they were having. So we spent a lesson going through Cooperative Care: Seven Steps of Stress Free Husbandry from Dr. Deborah Jones. Because it's amazing.
And we did all of step one and then we talked about other steps. So we gave them a starting point. That book in particular is really demonstrative for adolescent puppies. Because what does everybody want to do? They want to open to the toenail section. And Deb has a fantastic first paragraph of that chapter. And so I read it to them.
Like, I understand that the reason you're coming to toenails is because that's your biggest impact issue. And I am telling you, if you try to start here, you will fail. You're missing the magic. Go back, work through all the steps. I heard you, I understand that the toenails are the big issue, but you can't start there.
I usually use the example of having an argument with someone that you care about when you get together. You can't talk about the issue. You have to talk about other **** first. Sorry, I just cursed. I apologize.
Z: I have to jump in here and give a shout out to Kristi because I want to mention the Academy for Dog Trainers husbandry project, which has loads of plans on cooperative care which are designed for anyone to use and they've been very thoroughly vet tested. Anyone can get those from the Academy for Dog Trainers site.
And Kristi, I believe you have a nail trims course on your website too, if people want to sign up for that.
K: Yeah, it's probably suitable for the tone of this conversation. It's a more general course, it's like grooming and such made friendly for dogs. I think it starts at a little bit of a broader view, but it includes baths and yeah, it was written by Jane Woolf of Good Woolf Dog Training.
So yeah, that is available on my site and actually there's a scratchboard course that's free on my site too for people who just want to start there.
Z: Good. And I'm conscious of time, so I want to switch topics and talk about your podcast because we mentioned your podcast in the intro, Your Family Dog. And it's a really wonderful podcast.
It's how I got to know you and you alluded to us talking about dog parenting person parenting as well before, and that's from a conversation in your podcast that was also with Mark Bekoff. And we talked about the different parenting styles we had because mine was a very hippie upbringing, very different.
So if anyone's listening to this, they absolutely should go and check out Your Family Dog podcast. But I would like you to just quickly tell us about it and how you came to be involved in it, because it started with Julie Fudge Smith and Colleen Pelar, and then you came in as co host and now you're the solo host. So just tell us a bit about that.
T: Yeah, it's been quite the metamorphosis. I've known Colleen Pelar many, many, many years. She is a delight. She's one of my, like you, she's one of my favorite people. She is one of the people that I would contact when I'm like, out of my depth or I'm really struggling with something. Colleen is just magical. I just adore her.
So she reached out to me and said, I'm on this podcast. I'd like you to come on as a guest and talk about something. So I think we were talking about adolescent puppies. I think that's actually what we were talking about. And I had never been on a podcast before. It was a little daunting.
And I'm pretty anxious. So I was like, all the reasons why would anybody want to listen to me? And then she's like, you need to, you need to do this with me. And I was like, okay, cool. So I came on and that's when I got to meet Julie, who is also delightful. And I adore her. I miss her. I miss not her not being on the podcast each episode.
So the idea, I believe, of the podcast at its inception was to make it easier for families to navigate those fascinating waters of dogs and kiddos. And kiddos of all ages, shapes, types, all of it.
Colleen has written a number of books that are absolutely fantastic resources for kids and dogs, including a professional series that's for trainers to help trainers learn how to help people navigate those waters.
I believe Colleen stayed for the first hundred episodes and that started in 2016. And then Colleen was ready to pivot her career and to move from kids and dogs to amazing work working on resilience for humans in animal related industries.
I'm sure your podcast has talked before about how the suicide rate among veterinarians is the Highest in the US Even higher than veterans of wars, which is stunning to me. I think probably if we commingled or had a way to track it for vet techs, shelter workers, dog trainers, groomers, those numbers would also be pretty astronomically high.
And I've been frank about it before. I have struggled with suicidal ideation from time to time as a part of my work right there. There are things that happen in this industry that I can't fix, I can't change, and it is devastating and gutting.
And for many years, I tried to process those things as grief, and they're not. They're trauma. And so learning that they were trauma and that I needed to process them as trauma has literally saved my life. So I will say this time and many times in the future that Colleen Pelar and her work has saved my life and has saved the lives of many other professionals in our industries, because the compassion fatigue and the stress is a very real thing.
So Colleen was pivoting to that, and she said, I'd like you to take over my spot as the co host. And I was like, why? Why would anyone want that? That sounds like a terrible idea.
And I'm a verbal processor, as many of you may have guessed, listening. So I started asking the people around me who mattered what they thought about this idea because I'm a marinator, and I had to chew on it, and they were like, oh, my goodness, this will be fantastic. Like, you're so funny, you're so kind. You're blah, blah, blah, whatever. You've seen some stuff. So I think you should do it.
And so I did. I started doing it. And it can be daunting. Like, the what are we going to talk about question. It's like, what are we having for dinner? It happens every time, right? I think people don't always realize how stressful running a podcast can be.
And then Julie then wrote her first book, The Beast Keepers, and did great with it. It's amazing. If you haven't read it, it's delightful. It's nice. It's like an easy read and fun.
And so her dream had shifted. She wanted to spend more time with her grandkids and her kids. Her husband's getting ready to retire. She wants to do more writing. And so she was ready to retire off of the podcast. And so she reached out to me and said, I'm either going to let it die or I'm giving it to you.
And I said, well, it would be a shame for it to die.
So now I'm at the helm of this little world, trying to figure it out and untangle all my twinkle lights and try to figure out what we're doing. So it's fun learning new things. It's also frustrating and time consuming, but it's been a really fun adventure.
I realized I couldn't do it alone. Like, there's not enough hours in the day. So I brought on people to be a part of the project who are my heart right there. They're really smart. They have really amazing perspectives on things. And they're parenting age. They're not my age.
Because I do fear sometimes that Julie and Colleen and I created a podcast for us instead of for an audience. So we're putting a greater emphasis on that of. Of really thinking in terms of, you know, that new parents or parents in general are overwhelmed. They often feel shamed, they often feel judged, they're often not supported.
They're told all the things they're doing wrong. And you know that you should, should, should, should this list of shoulds. And I don't really want to contribute to that. I'd rather contribute to success and really saying to these families, you're doing great.
There are little things we can adjust that make it easier and better. And we'd love to kind of introduce those ideas to you and to love and support you through this, because parents are the heart of the home, and we've got to take care of them so that we can take care of everyone else. And so we navigate easy stuff, simple stuff. We also navigate really difficult, kind of ugly stuff sometimes.
So I'm excited that we get to have a new adventure. And so part of how I ended up on Zazie's podcast, because Zazie is our go to guest. Like, every time Zazie writes something, I'm like, you must come on because I miss your face and I want to hear your ideas and you're so smart and. And then Mark Bekoff is just a treasure. [The episode with Zazie and Marc is here].
So having you all on and me getting to learn from you is amazing. I hope it's amazing for our listeners too. I get lots of positive feedback that they do love those episodes.
So sprinkling in kind of practical. Like, here's three ways to work on getting your dog to come when called or to deal with jumping up at the front door with these deeper dives into like, were we just released on Tuesday, part two of an interview with Emily Priestley [part one is here].
That was amazing. That is another person that Zazie was like, you must talk to Emily. And I love her. And now I feel like I need a passport and I have to come to British Columbia.
Z: You should! And you've got a huge resource there of so many back episodes as well. And then I think it's every two weeks you've got a new episode. Yeah, it's a great podcast. It's one of my favorite things to listen to. And the episode with Emily, I've so far only listened to the first part. It was brilliant.
T: She's great. Like, she was so amazing.
We have always only been an audio format. We're adding video, I believe the beginning of the year. That's the goal.
And I believe we are going to go to once a week episodes starting in the new year. We also are doing throwback Thursdays. So on weeks that we're not releasing a brand new episode, we are releasing a throwback episode from the past.
Because you're right, there's some amazing stuff there. There's some amazing topics that like Colleen and Julie recorded that I just think it's a miss that people wouldn't necessarily always know to go back and like listen to those episodes too, because they're magic.
And I truly in my bones do not know everything. And they had really amazing perspectives to bring to the table. So they are both host emeritus. They are welcome back anytime. You will hear them and hopefully see them from time to time.
The transition to it being visual is not a hat that's fitting terribly comfortably. I think I'm just gonna have to bite the bullet. Get over it. I have a number of months to become 34 and thin. Not really sure how I'm gonna do that!
K: But it's a wonderful being 51 and your beautiful face. Well, that's advice from me. To me. So there.
T: Yeah. I think about my grandmother. My grandmother never liked having her photo taken. And so as a side effect, many of the photos she's in, she's scowling because she doesn't like having her photo taken. But as she aged, she once said to me, never turn down an opportunity to have your photo taken because there will be a day where you look back at that photo and instead of seeing all the flaws, you'll go, oh, my goodness, look how cute I was. So I'm embracing that.
Z: You're absolutely cute now. Cute right now.
T: Oh, you're very kind. So.
Are there things that I should include in adolescence that the two of you haven't put up? What do you think the most important things to cover in adolescence are?
Z: I think you shared some really important things. I think the relationship is very important and there's some research that shows that as well, that people are less likely to have issues if they have that good relationship, too. So I think that's really important.
K: Off the top of my head, I would say I think it's important to help people understand that their dog is turning into an adult organism so they'll be sharing a whole new type of relationship with them. They're not a being that exists to serve the human. They're an adult that they have the honor of sharing their home with.
So I think, sort of helping to guide people to understand their dogs as being a complete creature with their own interests and desires and, and being adult, you know, and having those kind of needs and interests is useful and sometimes it seems like it surprises people, so that'd be mine.
This transcript has been lightly edited for content and style.
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