The Emotional Lives of Animals with Dr. Marc Bekoff at Bark! Fest
Learn about how animals experience emotions like joy, grief, and empathy in this panel from Bark! Fest with Dr. Marc Bekoff talking about his new edition of The Emotional Lives of Animals.
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Animal Emotions with Marc Bekoff, PhD, at Bark! Fest
Bark! Fest, the book festival for animal lovers, took place in September 2024. I organized it to celebrate the launch of my book, Bark! The Science of Helping Your Anxious, Fearful, or Reactive Dog, which is out now (and coming in paperback next month!).
This is the recording of Animal Emotions with Marc Bekoff, PhD.
You can watch Animal Emotions on Youtube or below, listen wherever you get your podcasts (Apple, Spotify) or below, or scroll down to read a transcript of the highlights.
Get the books
All of the books from Bark! Fest, including The Emotional Lives of Animals (revised): A Leading Scientist Explores Animal Joy, Sorrow, and Empathy--and Why They Matter, are available from good bookstores, including my Amazon store and Bookshop (which supports independent bookstores).
The conversation with Marc Bekoff
When The Emotional Lives of Animals was first published in 2007, it was a gamechanger for its exploration of animal emotions and cognition. Now, a second edition has been published to bring us up to date on all the new science of animal emotions. Marc Bekoff joins us in this webinar to talk about animals’ experiences of joy, empathy, grief, anger, and embarrassment. You’ll never see animals the same way again.
We talked about:
- What Marc Bekoff was hoping to do when he wrote the first edition of this book in 2007, and why he wrote a second edition
- Bekoff says, "It is no longer radical to recognize, respect, and want to protect the emotional lives of animals.” We talk about how people can recognize, respect, and protect animal emotions
- What he looks out for when he watches dogs run around and play at the dog park
- Examples of sorrow and empathy in non-human animals
- Bekoff's research on wild canids including wolves
- What it was like to create the book, Jane Goodall at 90
- Plus Marc did a reading from the book and we were all captivated!
Also mentioned in this episode:
- Jane Goodall at 90 edited by Marc Bekoff and Koen Margodt
- Thinking Like a Wolf by Rick McIntyre.
To learn more about Marc Bekoff, visit his website: https://marcbekoff.com/
This session was hosted by Kristi Benson and Zazie Todd.
Highlights of the conversation with Marc Bekoff
Z: Okay, so let's go back to when you wrote the first edition of The Emotional Lives of Animals, because the way we think about animals was very different back then. And I think sometimes it's hard for people to remember or even to realize how it was, because a lot of us with pets just automatically think that our pets experience emotions.
So when you first wrote this book, what were you hoping to do? What were you hoping to achieve with it?
M: Yeah, that's a great question. Well, when I first wrote it... Gosh, I started it 19 years ago, which is absolutely daunting to me. I just wanted to collect all the evidence about the emotional lives of animals, which is the title of the book, because I'm really, I'm a biologist, I'm a behavioral ecologist. I do a lot of work on the evolution of behavior.
And one of the main questions or one of the main dilemmas was that people were still talking about if animals had emotions. And I wanted to change the nature of the game from if they have them to yes, they have them, why did they evolve?
So as a biologist, I think of emotions as adaptations. Very simply to allow an individual to make decisions when they're facing different social or non social situations. So that was one.
And the other was I wrote a paper for Bioscience in 1999 where I introduced the idea of what I called the "as if" disclaimer. And that was along the same lines as, well, dogs are only acting as if they enjoy playing, or elephants are only acting as if they're grieving.
And along the lines of that, about a couple months ago I got an email from somebody saying, well, do we really know if dogs enjoy playing?
And I'm sitting there thinking, yeah, we know.
And it was a nice email. So it wasn't one of the nasty ones. They said, well, how can I know dogs enjoy playing? And I said, go to a dog park. So that, that was kind of easy to do.
So that's why I wrote it. There was nothing at the time that really collected all the science and tons of stories. And I'd been thinking about it for a really long time, and when New Orleans Library contacted me to do the book, it's like anything. I said, oh, yeah. And then about a week later I went, what in the world did you get yourself into?
So anyway, it was a good journey and thank you.
K: Yeah, yeah. I love how Zazie worded that question because it's like things have changed a lot. And it would be odd now to not assume that the parsimonious statement was that animals had emotion. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, you'd have to do all this extra to kind of show that they didn't now, I think.
M: Yes, nice. That's a great point, Kristi. The arguments that people try to come up with that we don't really know something are so tortuous. They defy reality. In terms of anybody who's watched animals. I mean, I'm an ethologist, I get paid to watch animals carefully.
So, that's a very good point. Yeah.
K: So I read the first edition, but long enough ago that it has drained out of my ear. So when I came back and read the second edition, it was very new to me, all of it. So what made you decide to write a second edition of this book?
M: Well, in another moment of weakness... Well, I write a lot for Psychology Today and you know, and I had a lot of information there, but it was really to put to sleep the, you can fill in the blank, the stupidity of some people wondering whether animals still had emotion, you know, whether animals have rich and deep emotional lives.
So yeah, my publisher, New Orleans Library, had asked me about three years ago and I just said no because I had a lot of other books in the kitty along with two I wrote with Jessica Pierce, Unleashing Your Dog and A Dog's World.
But then I realized that I really wanted to do it. So the new editions, there's, you know, there's text from the old. But there's like about 300 new references.
And once again, you know, about halfway through, in another moment of weakness, I thought I said I should just bag this. And I don't mean that in a negative way. It's just so obvious, you know what I mean? I'm just collecting.
But you know, I'm really glad I did it. There's stronger arguments now and it's really updated.
It's not just in the United States to do a second edition of a book, it only has to be 20% new text or different. And this one is far more. And just as I was finishing, my publisher--for people who've published books, you know this, but if you haven't, my publisher said, how's it going? And I said, well, it's 25% longer than you wanted.
And they were great. They actually, they said fine, you know,
So I like it actually. And I don't mean that in a self serving way. I think it came out a lot better than I thought it would because I thought it would be the same old, same old. And people would read the boredom of trying to convince people that elephants grieve or dogs like playing.
Z: Well, I think it came out brilliantly well and I'm so glad that you did a second edition. And a lot of it is new. It is very much updated as you say.
So obviously when you were updating it there was lots of new information that you could include new stories to include as well. So which finding or piece of research made you especially happy that you could add it to this book?
M: Yeah, that's a great question. So in the beginning I got stories of grieving prairie dogs who I observed when I was out on a bike ride, and birds.
You know, the joy side of things or the history of the study of animal emotions was people really, really focused on negative emotions like fear and anger and hostility and aggression. It was the positive ones, you know, that people sort of got a little antsy about.
So it was interesting to just get a lot of interesting stories about grieving. And I don't mean that in a negative way because such a wide variety of animals grieve, but also the ones about joy and play and the way animals play. Because I've been studying play for a really long time.
And it was a good example of going back to data I collected decades ago to come up with what I called the golden rules of play, where you ask, first you play fairly. If you overstep your bounds by biting too hard or slamming into another animal too hard or humping and mounting them, you apologize with a play bow, say if you're a dog or a play gesture. So that was really good.
The other was the neuroimaging, the non-invasive work that Gregory Berns and other people have done, because a lot of people will go, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know my dog has these feelings and I know that they have rich emotional lives.
But the neuroimaging data have supported everything that people have reported from ethological research. So that was exciting. Yeah. And that could be the wave of the future for the few remaining dogmatic skeptics.
But really, as, I mean, I know Zazie knows well, there's no substitute for carefully watching animals and understanding their individual personalities and how they, as individuals, express their emotions.
K: So in the second edition, you write that "it is no longer radical to recognize, respect, and want to protect the emotional lives of animals".
This harkens back to what we were already started talking about, I think. So if we start with the recognize part, can you tell us about some of the changes that you've seen in how people recognize the emotional lives of animals in their lives?
M: Yeah, I mean, that's been really just one of the greatest aspects of redoing the book, collecting stories and talking to people about it.
And so focusing on dogs. For example, I just get all these wonderful emails from people saying, you know, I knew my dog had emotions, and they record them, they take videos. People go to dog parks, you know, and they take pictures of their dog and, or images and they'll send me the videos, so that's been really good.
And one aspect of that is we learn so much about different aspects of animal behavior and animal emotions from citizen scientists. I love when somebody describes something and then puts in a little video, into the email,
But it's also done. And you all might know this better than I do because I'm not a dog trainer and I really don't study human, animal, human dog relationships. But I get the feeling over the years, as people learn more about the behavior of dogs and other animals, our wild neighbors, for example, they develop stronger and more positive relationships with them. They realize that they're sentient beings who have a view of the world and they realize that how important that relationship is to the non human.
Around my house when I lived in the mountains, I had cougars and black bears and foxes and coyotes and all the dogs on this country road. It wasn't really a road, it was just a dirt, you know, thing that you, you hoped your car could get in and out of, but they would just hang out.
And I learned a lot by just watching this group of free ranging, they were really free ranging when I was home, dogs.
So that would be to me the most positive aspect of getting people to realize that when you become fluent in dog or dog literate, you can actually improve the relationship you have with your particular animal.
And once again, getting back to individual differences that, you know, littermates can vary from 0 to 180 just depending on who they are.
Z: And I think that leads beautifully into our next question, which is about the respect and protect part of that sentence. So using dogs as an example or pet dogs, what does it mean to respect and protect the emotional lives of our pet dogs?
M: Well, it means to recognize them as sentient beings. It means to recognize their individual differences. It means to recognize that they have a view on the world and that we need to pay really close attention to that question. What is it like to be a dog?
Back in the 70s, Tom Nagel, philosopher, wrote a really classic paper on what is it like to be a bat Because bats have such different motor and sensory systems.
So that's what I tell people, especially people who decide they want to get a dog but have never lived with a dog, you know. And I actually have sent some people to some of the local dog parks before, especially first time dog people, if you will, to just get a feeling for who the dogs are.
And not a single one has regretted it. But what came out of it was this interesting group of people who said, wow, you know, I never really watch dogs. They really have rich emotional lives. They're really smart. And I don't think my lifestyle lends itself right now to getting a dog.
And I find that, you know, some people go, oh, well, that's a bummer. You know. No, I found that to be really positive because they realized that getting a dog, especially a first time dog guardian, would be a huge investment of time and energy. Time, energy, money and, and flexibility. So I had not thought about that.
And then, because people say, would you come to the Boulder Humane Society or one of the, I said, I don't have the time to do that, number one. And number two, I don't know where you live and I don't know your situation at home, you know.
So making them really feel the emotions of dogs, and know that they care about what's happening to them, could foster a much more negotiable symmetrical relationship.
K: I love that and I love the orientation towards allowing dogs to play with each other in dog park situations. And I think there's so much joy to be found in watching dogs play. I adore it when my dogs play. I try and do whatever I can to get my dogs to play with each other.
And me, I finally got the dog on the couch behind me. Archer, he wasn't really very playful with people, but finally, I think I found the right movement recently that he started to play with.
M: That's great. You know, over the years, because I had a lot of dogs and the few houses on the road, all the dogs would come down. So at any one time there could be four to seven dogs. And over the years it could have been 30 or 40 different dogs.
You learn that not only does each individual dog have their own temperament and personality, but they changed. I mean, just like we do, as I want to say, as they age. But it's not only that, it's, it's sort of as they become more familiar with one another, you know.
Humans will go, oh, that's Zazie, you know, oh, that's Kristi. Oh, that's Mark. And I can see these dogs going, oh, that's Jethro, you know, he's just this whack job who this is what he does and come to accept it, you know what I mean? And learn about the social dynamics of the group and then the individuals and how they change.
And so a lot of, a lot of observations that inform my views of dogs were from this group of dogs who were there almost every day of the year just hanging out. I would throw, I would put food out in my, in the fields around my house, you know, like the size of a marble. And sometimes they would spend five hours looking for marble sized food.
And it enriched their lives. And they rarely ever, if ever had collars or leashes when I was home, you know.
K: Yeah. So I think like everybody on this call probably enjoys watching dogs play. And I think joy is such a great word to describe what I think dogs are feeling and how I feel watching them.
And I think all of us would love to go to a dog park with you, Mark. You were talking about people reaching out to you and I love the way you interact with the people who do reach out to you. I think that's one of like the greatest things about you as an author.
So let's imagine that that could happen and we could all go to the dog park together. What kind of things would you be looking for and pointing out to us as, you know, as dog trainers or as just interested dog guardians?
M: Well, I look at the way, I mean it depends on what the situation is when you get there, but I often got there early and so as dogs were arriving and I would, you know, just, you know, if you have a phone, I mean a lot of this stuff was done by hand and just big cameras years ago.
But you know, pick a dog, first of all, do what we call focal animal sampling. Just focus on an individual dog, see who they try to interact with or avoid and who tries to interact with them or avoids them, and then, all of a sudden, I mean it's amazing how most like one of the running trails around here, the cycling trails where dogs are allowed, the multi use trails and dog parks, you really see some very regular activity of you know, Joe gets there and he's used to seeing Sadie there and when Sadie's not there, he will run around looking for Sadie.
And what's uncanny is how I know dogs don't have great distance vision, but how they know another dog and they just tend to be able to read who it is and what they want to do. You know, and watch them group and then, just pick a behavior in which you're interested.
I mean, it's frenetic when you go to a dog park and you get there in the morning after most of them have been cooped up at night, how wired they are.
And then have people, you know, they'll say, well, I'm interested in whether my dog, you know, Joey, is he an extrovert or an introvert? So I'd say, well, watch him. Does he try to initiate interactions? And how is he when other dogs try to initiate interactions with him? Is he picky?
And these are the same questions that we asked. I mean, literally almost every day for eight and a half years when I studied wild coyotes in Wyoming. It's the same questions.
You know, you've got dogs who are free to run around. Yeah, they're constrained because there's a big fence around, and something constrains them at a dog park. And then just pick what you want. Are you interested in play dynamics?
One woman said, my little dog's kind of nerdy and he just runs around, he runs circles around groups of dogs playing. Why is he doing this? And I said, well, I don't know. So why don't you just watch him and see if other dogs invite him in, or how does he try to get into a playgroup, you know?
And a couple of months later, she said, yeah. She said, I don't think he's such a nerd. He just doesn't really realize how to play. He had been a rescue dog.
So those are the kinds of questions. Just get out there and have fun. And, and as you said, Kristi, I mean, watching play is contagious. You know, I always want to jump in and [join in], but I'm cautious because I have thick skin for people who say nasty things to me, but my skin isn't thick enough to get into a wrestling match with a dog.
Z: Yeah. So we've been talking about joy now, but I think we should turn our attention to some of the other emotions that are mentioned in the title. And I wondered if you could give us an example of sorrow in non human animals.
M: Well, sorrow is an interesting emotion. I mean, you know, you could feel sorrow when you lose a friend and it's part of the whole grieving scenario. But also for example, when getting back to play, when a dog bites another dog too hard and, and there's a pause. I mean the pause can be a few seconds or it can be a while until the dog who thinks they were attacked or were, you know, being chased as food or was humped and mounted gets over it and says, oh, I see, you're just playing.
So your question's a really good one, because years ago when I looked at the placement of play bows in different sequences at different parts of sequences of play, you know, I noticed when one dog, or we found the same in coyotes and wolves, was a little exuberant and bit too hard or slammed in too hard, there would be that momentary pause when they would maybe do a play bow or do another play signal to say I'm sorry. So that it's, it's a multi, you know, it's a double edged sword there, but in a positive way.
So sorrow is, it's complicated, and empathy.
There's so many stories now of dogs helping other dogs or being, not only reading our emotions, but I think reading what other dogs want and need and what they're feeling. And I know people go, oh, you know, we don't really know that. Yeah, I think we do.
I'm not saying dogs sit down and do calculus. I'm not saying dogs have an oxytocin sensor in their nose, but I'm saying that dogs usually have a really good feeling for what another dog is feeling and empathize and there's good stories in my book about that.
K: Is there anything else to discuss about empathy when it comes to non dog animals? Like, is that something that you've seen or heard about?
M: Oh yeah, there's some good studies of chickens showing empathy for other chickens in need. I call it kind of the biodiversity of empathy. When people have looked for it in certain animals, they found it. And I don't mean they found it and it's not there.
They just, it never dawned on some people to think of chickens as being empathic. For example, you might have to recognize another individual, you might have to sort of feel what they're feeling. But you know, chickens apparently can remember a hundred faces. So I don't think that it's going too far.
I can't imagine that it hasn't evolved across mammals and birds and, you know, maybe even fishes. You just, as an ethologist, you just have to sit down.
The first step is to develop an ethogram, we call it a menu of the actions the animals use and understand how they use them and what they mean, and it takes time. I mean, after eight and a half years and really about 5,000 hours of watching wild coyotes, we were still learning certain things. I mean, the learning curve asymptotes for sure.
But towards the end of the study, I can't remember what it was, but a female did something. I don't remember exactly what it was that we had never seen before, and it was just, maybe it was a rare behavior, but it was still something they did.
Z: And you have a lot of science in the book, but you also have a lot of stories that help to illustrate the science. And so I've been wondering, is one of those stories a favorite? Is there one that you would pick out and say there's one that's really your favorite story in the book?
M: No, I don't think so. No. I mean, it's a good question. I love them all. I don't know about favorites.
Well, I mean, something that was really important, and it was in the beginning of the book, was the story of. I was riding my bike up a road in rural Boulder and I saw two prairie dogs in the road from a distance, and one of them just turned out to be a dead, small prairie dog. I imagine it was a child, a prairie dog's child and another prairie dog, who from size looked to be a female, I'm not quite sure, trying to pull the prairie dog off the road.
And so I stopped, of course, and I got out my phone and I dictated exactly what was going on. And there was a cyclist ahead of me who had stopped. And I caught up to him and I asked him, did you see what I saw?
And I didn't say a word. And he told me the story. He said, yeah, it just seemed like he was trying to pull maybe their child off the road.
And so I wrote that up. I bounced it off a prairie dog expert who said, well, yeah, I mean, we've seen stuff like that.
And then a couple years later, I got a story from a woman in Utah who saw the same thing, so she wrote to me, she said, this is what I saw. Then I discovered your article that you wrote about it. So that was really exciting too that, I mean that she had the presence of mind to stop, take notes and find out if anybody else had ever done so. That was a favorite one.
And some of the, you know, do animals have a sense of humor? You know, dogs running around showing something off and then stopping like Jethro used to do and peering the room. I mean, I don't know if he was looking to see if other humans were paying attention to him, but I got the feeling that yes, he delighted in amusing them.
Z: Yeah, I think it's great the way that, I mean the stories in the book, they're things you've seen yourself. And the fact that someone else would write in with a similar story, I think that's just wonderful.
And you mentioned coyotes a moment ago and you've studied car behavior across different carnivores. You studied wolves as well. So I wanted to ask you if you can tell us something about your research on wild wolves.
M: Well, I never did much formal on them, although I've been with the wolves in Yellowstone and I'm involved in the wolf reintroduction disaster here. I'll stop there.
But yeah, I mean, I spent time in Yellowstone watching the wolves. Years ago I was going to have a grad student work on them, but, you know, that didn't work out. But I don't know, it's hard to say anything more than when you have a pack of wolves and, and they are together, they know and feel what other animals in the group know and feel.
And the person I go to now is Rick McIntyre. He's got a fifth book coming out called Thinking Like a Wolf. And his previous four books have been great. And so what I glean from Rick, and I was in the field with him some years ago, is that if you want to see similarities between wolves and dogs because dogs came from a common wolf ancestor, they're there.
I mean, that's not to say wolves are dogs or dogs are wolves. But for me what it does from the dog point of view is, is to remind me, and it's something I remind other people that dogs have wolf genes in them still and they have wolf engrams in their brains. You know, so there's a lot of evolutionary history within a dog.
I mean, you wouldn't know that from dogs who weigh four pounds or maybe weigh 200 pound. But you know, there's very little difference ethologically between wolves and dogs in terms of their basic behavior patterns and the way that they fight or threaten one another or take care of one another, which Rick has wonderful stories of empathy in the wild wolves.
K: Thank you. So this book was a revision. And because this is a literary festival and Zazie and I are always very interested in people's writing process, and I think revising is very different than writing something fresh. So what was your process for, like, revising this work?
M: Ah, well, the first process was the first day I sat down and reread the first edition and started writing the second one. I was looking for any and every excuse to get away from my computer and resist writing my publisher and say, you know what? It's a good idea.
But what I did do, and I really mean it, is I'm really organized. So I had a whole stack of stuff of new stuff, and then I just started. I didn't work off of the manuscript that I had sent in 17 years ago because that. It just wasn't working for me. I know people can do that. I just started rewriting and it's reorganized too.
Some of the chapters have the same titles or similar titles, but I was looking for new material that supported the old material. And just to break up the boredom of saying, well, of course we learned this, I would keep a chart.
And the chart was new research. And in the left hand column supports old research, supports old stories. New column doesn't.
There was almost no entry in the new column. In other words, we didn't learn that dogs or cats or fishes or birds or lobsters, you name your animal, were, quote, less emotional, less sentient. Everything we learned fed into what I call the biodiversity of sentience, if you will, that these animals have very rich emotional lives and they are deeply and uniquely sentient.
And that was the motivator. It's not like if I found a study that would say, now you don't really have to worry about your dog, you know, or a cat or a wolf, I wouldn't use it. But nothing was there, you know, so that's how it was.
And then, like I said, the manuscript, it went from being twice as long as it could should be to about 50% as long. And I just threw up my hands and I said to my editor, Jason, I said, here it is. I said, you can go slice it up and cut it. I am not doing it anymore. There's too much exciting material.
I mean, you know, I mean, Zazie knows and, you know, Kristi, you know, just all the stuff we're learning and have learned in the last 17 years. It's very powerful.
Z: Yeah, it's very powerful, and it's amazing. And I think that's why it's so great that you did a second edition of this book. And I would like to remind everyone this is really something that should be on every animal lover's bookshelf. You definitely to read it.
But you're actually a very prolific writer, Mark, and one of the books you held up earlier was Jane Goodall at 90. You've worked a lot with Jane Goodall. Can you tell us about the book Jane Goodall at 90?
M: Yeah. So when Jane turned 80, I did a book called The Jane Effect. And it was a collection of a couple of hundred essays. It turned out to be to celebrate her birthday. And so I work closely with Jane. I talked to her. You know, we email a lot. And she was in Denver in March. God, this is 2...2024. Yeah, I'm not good on calendars. Yeah. So she was in Denver in March 2023, and she was turning 89.
So we hung out a lot. And then I just got this idea. Let's just. I mean, I'm talking to myself. Let's just do a book to celebrate Jane's 90th birthday next year.
And so I started outlining it. And I run the Jane Goodall Ethic Committee with a man named Koen Margodt, who lives in Belgium, and he's a good friend, and he also works closely with Jane. So I said, Koen, let's do a book for Jane's 90th birthday, 90 essays. And let's really make it more intimate.
And so in the description of the book, it's really the real Jane. You know, Jane often complains that people don't really understand that she's got wicked sense of humor. And she has a wicked sense of humor. And of course, she likes single malt Scotch. There was even an article in the New York Times that had scotch in the title. It's nothing she's embarrassed about.
So we collected essays from people who were on the ground with her in early, you know, 64 years ago, and people who have really worked closely with her and who know her.
So that was the genesis for the book, you know. And so there's 90 essays. We call them 90 Candles. And we have essays from her son, Grub Hugo van Lawick Jr. And her grandchildren, Merlin and Angel and Nick.
And Nick actually did some beautiful Artwork and Tom Mangelsen, who's a world famous wildlife photographer, did the covers and then and, and provided a lot of photos, images, and we wanted it to be a surprise.
And after six months of putting it together, we started realizing that people, I knew, they could read English, but people started talking about the book. So right before New Year's of 2020. Yeah, we'd been 2023 to 2024. We put together a zoom conference about ethics because we didn't want to give it away. So we said, okay, Jane, we need to talk to you at 7 o' clock your time, noon in Colorado and whatever time. I guess it was 8 o' clock in Belgium.
So Mary Lewis, who has been working with Jane for ages, and Tom joined and Jane came down and said, so, like it's almost New Year's or something like that. You know what's so important about the ethics tonight? And so we had mailed a copy of the book to her sister Judy, with whom she lives.
I said, Judy, could you give Jane this package? And Jane's just ripping it open and as he holds up the book. So she was surprised, and it was a really fun book to do, to be honest with you.
And we've had a lot of positive responses because, I mean, Jane is just one of the most inspirational person women I've ever met in my life. And I've worked really closely with her for years and still do. So that was it.
If you read the book, you will learn a lot about who we call the real Jane. I'm not going to give anything more away. See, there's one great picture here of her in South Dakota playing a prairie dog. And prairie dogs do what's called the jumping yipping display. It's an alarm display and Jane's doing one. And then there's some ample ones of I was playing tug of war with Jane and then sharing Scotch cell phone.
Z: That sounds like an amazing present for Jane and a great read for everybody else as well.
The interview highlights have been lightly edited for content and style.
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