Can Your Dog Tell If You're Pregnant and Smell If You're Stressed with Dr Catherine Reeve

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Zazie and Kristi find out whether dogs change their behaviour when someone in the home is pregnant and if they can use their noses to detect when someone is stressed, with canine scientist Dr Catherine Reeve.

Zazie Todd, Kristi Benson, and canine scientist Dr Catherine Reeve chat over Zoom for The Pawsitive Post in Conversation


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Listen to episode 62 of The Pawsitive Post in Conversation wherever you get your podcasts (Apple, Spotify) or below, watch on Youtube or below, or scroll down for the show notes.





Can dogs detect changes like pregnancy and stress with Dr Catherine Reeve

Zazie and Kristi chat with scientist Dr. Catherine Reeve about her research to find out whether dogs change their behaviour when their owner is pregnant and if they can use their noses to detect when someone is stressed.

We talked about:
  •     The survey that investigated whether women think their dog's behaviour changed when they were pregnant
  •     The kinds of dogs that were most likely to show changes
  •     How the scientists got scent samples from people who were stressed
  •     The training to teach dogs to alert to the scent
  •     How well the dogs did at the task
  •     The implications for ordinary dog guardians

The papers we talked about are:

The books Catherine recommended are The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog and Other Stories from a Child Psychiatrist's Notebook by Dr. Bruce Perry and Maia Szalavitz and The Unworthy by Agustina Bazterrica. The books are available from all good bookstores and my Amazon store. 


Dr. Catherine Reeve is a Postdoctoral Fellow at Mount Saint Vincent University. She has a PhD in Experimental Psychology from Dalhousie University. She’s interested in applied canine behaviour, canine cognition, especially olfaction, and human-animal interaction. And she’s the head trainer at Epic Tails Canine Adventures in Halifax, Nova Scotia.




The conversation with Dr. Catherine Reeve about her research on dogs, pregnancy, and whether dogs can use their noses to detect stress


Zazie: We know that dogs have amazing noses, but can dogs detect when someone is pregnant and can they tell if you are feeling stressed? Well, we're going to find out today because we're joined by canine scientist Dr. Catherine Reeve.

Welcome to The Pawsitive Post in Conversation. I'm Zazie Todd. I'm joined as always by my friend and co host Kristi Benson. And Kristi, we've had a few episodes recently about dogs noses, haven't we?

And they've been really popular and really fun and interesting.

Kristi: Yeah, I think it's one of the ways where I think people are like, this is something that feels so different from us,

you know, so it's one of those ways where we're like, our dogs are, you know, they're part of our family, but they're also, they have these interesting differences.

Zazie: Yes. So we're very lucky to learn even more about this today.

And as I said, we've got Dr. Catherine Reeve with us. Dr. Catherine Reeve is a postdoctoral fellow at Mount Saint Vincent University.

She has a PhD in experimental psychology from Dalhousie University.

And she's interested in applied canine behavior, canine cognition, especially canine olfaction, which is what we're talking about today,

and human animal interaction. And she's also the head trainer at Epic Tails Canine Adventures in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Thank you for joining us today, Catherine.

Catherine: Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.

Zazie: We're thrilled to chat with you. So why did you decide to investigate whether or not dogs can detect when someone is pregnant?

Catherine: Yeah, so this study came about, it was about kind of a twofold reasoning there. The first one being, much like a lot of other women in science,

an increased interest in women's health and women's health related topics while at the same time, you know, I have this strong interest in canine olfaction as well as just dog's ability to detect when, you know, their people have emotional, physical,

behavioral changes and how that impacts the dog in some ways. And I had a few students at the time who had mentioned to me that their dog's behavior changed when they became pregnant.

And I had heard of this a few times and I was thinking, this is really, really interesting. And so I went to the literature and I'm doing all these searches and I found it never actually been documented.

And I said, well, that's it, we're going to document this. Absolutely. Because I just kept hearing about it. So I wanted to see, you know, the extent of it and what was really going on there, try and get a clearer picture of what's going on.

Kristi: So we,

Zazie and I were recently talking about surveys, you know, like the science of surveys and how surveys are created. And we had a really interesting conversation. I think both of us, you know, adore science and feel like science has a really important place in our lives as, you know, dog guardians.

So I was keen to read more about your study. So what, you know, how did you do the study and what did you find?

Catherine: Right. So it was a retrospective online survey.

So participants self selected if they were interested. We advertised online and people could participate if they wanted to. The retrospective part being that they had to have a dog at the time that they were pregnant, they didn't need to be currently pregnant.

So it was retrospective, which, you know, as scientists, you recognize that has some limitations in some way.

And so we recruited people online.

The survey itself contained a few different sections of questions. We had participant demographics. We asked people about themselves, about their dogs, their age, you know, what's the gender of the dog, how old are they.

We asked them about their pregnancy as well, so some questions about how their pregnancy went.

Then we presented them with five different categories of behaviors. We categorized dog behaviors to help the participants, you know, form a bit of a clearer picture about their dog's behavior. And so we present them with five categories of behaviors. 

Those included like attention or connection seeking type behaviors, guarding or stress or anxiety type behaviors around unfamiliar people, around familiar people, then stress or anxiety or fear based behaviors towards the owner, and then anxiety, fear, stress related behaviors towards other dogs. 

And within each of those categories, we listed, you know, a whole bunch of behaviors, asked them to select the ones that they felt that their dog displayed before the owner became pregnant.

And then we asked them, did you think your dog's behavior changed when you became pregnant? Yes or no? It if they said yes, then we asked them, we presented them those categories of behaviors again and said, which of these did your dog show during your pregnancy?

So that we could compare before and during. We also asked them if they reported that their dog's behavior changed during their pregnancy, did you feel that your dog's behavior changed before you were aware you were pregnant?

As, you know, a bit of a side question there.

And then we did a whole bunch of analyses and tried to figure out, are we seeing differences in behavior before and during pregnancy? First of all, so the big, the one big finding was, yes, we did see an increase in behaviors for all of those categories of behaviors during pregnancy compared to before.

So they're reporting more behaviors during pregnancy compared to before.65ish percent of our sample, which was only about 130 people, but about 65% of them reported that their dog's behavior did change during pregnancy.

And about 27ish percent said that their dog's behavior change before they were aware that they were pregnant.

Which, again, this is based on people's perceptions of their dog's behavior. So we can't, you know, concretely say, well, dogs can detect pregnancy even when the people don't know they're pregnant. This is how people think their dogs behaved.

We did further analyses to just look at, you know, is there any predictors of, of whether people told us, did any of those variables predict whether they were likely to say that their dog's behavior changed during pregnancy or not?

Um, and the only variables that seemed to predict anything were if the dog guarded or showed fear or anxiety behaviors around unfamiliar people before pregnancy, it increased the odds that the person would report that their dog's behavior changed during pregnancy.

And based on the category behavior data, we know that if they said their dog was nervous around unfamiliar people, that increased during pregnancy.

And then conversely, really interestingly, we found that those who said their dogs showed higher levels of fear and anxiety towards other dogs were less likely to say that their dog's behavior changed during pregnancy.

So because we don't have information on those who said their dog's behavior didn't change during pregnancy,

you know, during the pregnancy, we don't have behavior data for them during pregnancy. We presume that means that they maintained that fear and anxiety towards dogs during pregnancy. It didn't change.

If we looked at more of like the data in depth, what we did see is that those who reported that their dog's behavior did change during pregnancy showed lower baseline levels of fear and anxiety towards dogs before pregnancy.

And then when their behavior changed during pregnancy, they were showing more fear and anxiety towards dogs during pregnancy.

So if they weren't fearful before or less fearful, they became more fearful of other dogs during pregnancy. Whereas if they were already quite fearful of dogs during pregnancy, that appears to be maintained.

So those are the major findings, especially, you know, that 27% of people said the dog's behavior changed before they were aware they were pregnant. Leads us to believe, you know, there's a lot going on here that dogs are detecting that we might not be necessarily conscious of at the time.

Zazie: But you can't use your dog. Your dog's behavior as a pregnancy test.

That wouldn't be very reliable.

Not very well,

but I think that's really interesting. And to pick up on what you said about the dogs that were fearful of other people.

Their behaviour was, I think you said, more likely to change when the person was pregnant.

Do you think any of this relates to the closeness of the relationship between the dog and the person?

Catherine: Yeah, it's interesting you asked that because we did measure that with a measure called the MDORS that gets at the dog owner relationship. And that didn't impact whether or not they reported their dog's behavior changed or not.

However, I, you know, personally and from my work with dogs, I would think that those that are quite nervous of people, they tend to read people very well. Right. And they tend to be watching for all the little signs that things are changing and.

And do I need to be nervous and be ready?

So I can imagine if, if a dog was nervous around people and very perceptive of changes in people as a result of that, if their owner's physiology, behavior, emotions,

whatever, changed when they became pregnant, they were probably quite sensitive to that.

It doesn't seem to be related to the relationship, at least in our data set. But I know other literature might suggest that there is a link there. So something to look more into for sure.

Zazie: Yeah, definitely something we'd like more research on.

Kristi: Yeah. And you hear about it and you're like, of course it makes sense that dogs would notice. I mean, when you think of pregnancy, there's like so much hormonal and endocrine and, you know, it's not just the knowledge of.

It's like, you know, there's body changes there. So it's unsurprising, I guess, that dogs who live in that world, that chemical world.

Catherine: Yeah, yeah, right. Plus the amount of behavior changes when someone becomes pregnant and probably environment changes as well. The house might change a bit. You know, there's a lot going on for dogs during.

Kristi: And even the, like, other family members, like, you think there's this whole slew and. Yeah, yeah, it's very interesting.

Catherine: Big change for people. It's a big change for dogs too, is what we're discovering. At least the more we learn about dogs internal worlds. Yeah, yeah.

Zazie: And I think, you know, people often say that if you're going to have a baby, you should start working with your dog to get them used to the changes ahead of time.

And I guess this really emphasizes that, doesn't it? Because people might be assuming the dog isn't aware, but actually the dog quite likely is aware that something is going on.

Catherine: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I don't have children myself, But I have worked with a lot of, you know, families with new children or, you know, visiting children or whatnot. And, yeah, we do have that discussion a lot about, you know, how different this is for a dog all of a sudden, and how can we help prepare them for this?

And they're going to go through a lot of changes as well.

Zazie: Well, that's really interesting. And then you also looked at another really interesting question as well, which is whether or not dogs can detect if someone is stressed.

And I can certainly think of one particular time when I was on the phone and I had some bad news, and I was actually very stressed. This was when I had Bodger, who was my Australian Shepherd, and he just started running around the room like, where is it? What is upsetting you? What can I do about it? I want to sort them out. Like, he became, like, really protective, I suppose, but he didn't know what was upsetting me.

So I certainly felt that he could tell when I was stressed. So you did this research in a really interesting way because you looked at whether dogs could be trained to alert to a sample from a person who was stressed, but not to alert to a kind of baseline sample from them.

So let's start with the samples that you tested dogs with. How did you get the samples?

Catherine: Yeah, yeah. So to just back up a little bit, we were interested in specifically, can they smell when we're stressed?

Because of all the work I've done previously Where I'm looking at, you know, can dogs detect physiological changes in odors that are coming off of people?

So maybe they don't know that their physiology is changing, but it is.

Can the dog detect that? So we were interested sources specifically in smell. 

So like you said, we collected odor samples, and the people themselves,

who were the participants contributing these stress smells, Were never in the room. So the dog couldn't read any behavior cues or anything else. So we wanted only the smell.

So we collected samples.

We had a few different protocols because, unfortunately, this study really started getting off the ground right when Covid hit.

So it was in Northern Ireland and Belfast when I was working there. So my amazing graduate students adapted very well. And so we had a few protocols. We had one that was online where we talked people through how to collect their own samples.

And then we, you know, we'd drop off a kit so they could collect everything in a sterile way. And then we'd go pick it up from their house and bring it back.

And then the, the other set of samples that we collected were in person when we could do that again.

So I'll tell you about the in person protocol, and you can imagine it adapted for not in person collection, remote collection. So we had people come in,

we hooked them up to a BioPac, which is just a whole bunch of different physiological measures.

My colleague Zachary Petzl was, he studied physiology more than me in the department at the time. So we partnered with him, he helped us get all of that organized.

And then my graduate students at the time, Clara Wilson and Carrie Campbell, they had these participants come in, hook them up to the BioPac. It's a whole bunch of like, sensors on the skin, sensors on the fingers,

and it's collecting their blood pressure and heart rate.

So we'd have that data the whole time.

We had them sit there for like three minutes silently. And then we collected baseline samples. So we had them take sterile gauze. So they're wearing gloves.

We take sterile gauze out of a package, they wiped it on the back of their neck, and then they put it in a, a glass vial. Then we'd have them exhale deeply three times into it, and then we close it up. So that was their.

We had them do three of those at baseline. So three different samples, baseline samples. Then we stressed them out. So we had them do natural arithmetic out loud.

So this is a well validated protocol to stress people out, as you can imagine.

So I can't remember exactly how we did it, but I think we started at 9,000 or something. And we said, count back by 17.

And with two researchers in the room, Carrie and Clara were there, and if they got a question wrong, they'd say, that's not right, please try again. And they would just stress.

So this stresses people out quite a lot.

So we had them do that for three minutes. When they were done, we had them, or, sorry, at baseline, we also had them complete a visual analog scale of how stressed they were plus the physiological measures. Then we did mental arithmetic, stress them out a whole bunch.

Then we collected the visual analog data again. So how stressed are you?

And then we had all the biopsies, BioPac data as well.

And then we had them donate another set of samples when they were stressed.

And then kind of at the same time, we also had control samples. So they donated their baseline samples, they donated multiple stress samples. And then we had them just prepare blank samples as well so that it's their hands touching everything.

So that's how we collected the samples. And then the poor people, we gave them like 10 pounds and said, thank you so much.

So most of them were quite stressed. We had some specific controls on. We need to see this. Kinds of changes in their physiological data and the visual analog scale data in order to say, yeah, they were stressed enough that we'll use these samples.

So thank goodness for all those people that participated. We got a lot of samples and a lot of them were quite stressed out. But.

Yeah,

Kristi: go ahead, Zazie.

Zazie: No, I was just going to say, I. It's hard to imagine that someone wouldn't be stressed out by that unless they're exceptional at doing mental arithmetic.

Catherine: There were a few. There's certainly a few that we were like, oh, that was. They're apparently very good at math.

Kristi: So,

like, when I was first reading through the article and it came up this, you know, did this math stress test,

I actually, my heart started racing a little bit and I was like, oh, God, was it long division? Like,

I don't even remember how to do it. How do you do long division? What number do you start with? I haven't done long division in 40 years.

I suspect I would have been one who was mildly stressed.

Catherine: At least two people in lab coats that are like, and you're hooked up to all these things. Yeah.

Kristi: And. Yeah, and saying it sternly. That was clarified. He said stern. No, that's not right. I'd be like,

Catherine: I know. We were trying to follow the protocol, you know, this validated protocol as closely as possible. And my poor students, I was like, yeah, you're gonna have to tell them they were wrong.

My poor students would leave just as stressed, you know.

Kristi: You're secretly collecting samples from them, too.

Catherine: Yeah! So, I mean, those are our experimental samples. We had a lot of, like, training samples as well. But, yeah, that's how we collected the experimental sample. Yeah.

Kristi: So one thing that I loved as a fellow dog trainer, I loved reading the methods of this study because I could tell the training was done well. And that's not always the case in Sometimes you see, you know, dog training, oriented lit. And you're like, I'm not sure that they really talk to a dog trainer, you know, because dog train, we're good at getting stuff done. I could tell it's like, oh, look, criteria change and you know, they're counting trials.

I have such a. It's kind of a relief, you know, it's like, oh, it's good training.

So what did you, what did you do to train them?

Catherine: Yeah. Thank you.

So we had a bunch of volunteer dogs come in. Also really important to say that as part of the training there's a huge attrition rate, as you can imagine. So some dogs just don't enjoy this kind of work.

And then we say, well, we're not going to force them to do it. And so they just, you know, we say, sorry, this isn't for them. And the owner takes them home.

So for the training, we used like positive reinforcement to shape, first of all like a targeting behavior of some kind. So we presented the samples to the dogs in on a three arm apparatus.

So we showed them three samples at a time. So we needed them to be able to show us, you know, that they were choosing one of them.

So we would, we trained them using positive reinforcement to give us a targeting behavior which was either depending on what the dog preferred, either like a stand stare. So they'd stand and freeze for,

you know, three, four long seconds at the sample. They're choosing some and then two of them, I think sat. So they'd come up to the sample they're choosing and they would sit down.

So based on what they preferred, we'd shape that so that it was long enough that it wasn't just a passing by signal. We wanted to be very clear.

And so that we started that process by using breath and sweat samples from ourselves, like team members,

putting them in the apparatus with the three arms. We'd put one sample in,

breath and sweat sample plus a little piece of food, and then two blank ones. So gauze in the vial but no breath or sweat on it so that the dog would be interested in it.

So then when it approached, we could, you know, they would show interest in it. Then we could shape that, reward them for standing there for a second sniffing at it.

And then, you know, through the gradual training process, slowly increase the time that they were standing in front of it or if they sat.

And then slowly over time, we would take the food away and just leave the food residue smell. And then eventually we clean everything and it was just a breath and sweat sample.

So we paired the sample with food so that it is interesting and exciting and fun and that they're interested in it. And yeah, as long as they were showing progress, there Then we would move on to the next phases.

And progress was important also in dog training. Right. That it's not always linear, so sometimes we'd have to back up a little bit and then move forward. Back up. It'll move forward.

But if we saw that the dog enjoyed it and they were motivated to keep going, then we would keep going with them until we got them to the point where they didn't need food.

They were able to smell all three arms and just pick out the one that had the sweat and breath sample and indicate clearly for us. And then once they could do that, then we moved on to the formal training of let's start smelling human samples and see how you feel about that.

Kristi: And you were still using food, but just not as kind of to lure the dog to one spot during this training process, right?

Catherine: Yeah, yeah. So we tried as best we could to get rid of the food as quickly as we could so that we could be really reinforcing them for smelling the breath and sweat sample.

But like I said, if we needed to, we would back up. So if they seem kind of confused or were struggling, we'd back up and add food. Or we might just, like rub food in it a little bit and then.

But not actually have the little kibble in there sort of thing.

So try and, like, minimize the food smell before we switch to just human smells. But it was a very flexible process for a little while until they figured out what the task was.

And then once they figured it and they were quite consistent, that's when we started implementing the. You need to get 8 out of 10 in order to progress to the next stage of training.

So that we knew that the dogs were performing above chance, essentially, and that our data would be valid. Yeah.

Zazie: And it's always nice to hear about dogs enjoying the research that they are taking part in as well. So,

yeah, that is always good. So then you finished training them and they went on to actually be tested on these samples you collected. So how did you test them?

What were the results?

Catherine: Yeah, thanks. So again, just to back up a little bit, because I didn't clarify all the training steps there. So we'd start with food,

and then once they showed this they consistently didn't need food, then we did.

We tested their ability to discriminate between two people. So we'd have two different people donate breath and sweat.

We always start with one as the target. So we'd have. All of the testing was done in two phases almost. So we'd start with a target sample and then two blank samples,

once the dog showed us they could indicate that, you know, above chance levels, then we'd show them the target sample and somebody else's and a blank. So now we're saying, keep showing me that first person, even though there's another person's smell in here.

So once they showed us they could do that, then we put them on one person at two different times a day.

So it might be first thing in the morning, and then, you know, I might donate one before I brush my teeth in the morning and then, you know, a couple hours later and see if the dog can discriminate between those two in that two phase process again.

So once we had dogs that had got through all of that,

then we showed them the test samples. So like I said, we collected multiple baseline samples, multiple stress samples, and then we also had controls that were blank.

So in the testing phase, in phase one of that, we presented them with one of the stress samples and then two blanks.

So the dog knew, this is the smell I'm looking for, this is the one I'm going to be rewarded for.

And if they got, you know, 8 out of 10 trials, then we'd move them on to the next phase where we presented them with the same person.

Stress smell. But this was a new sample, so that person donated multiples.

But we had a new version, like a new copy of that stress smell. And then we added their baseline smell and then we had the blank.

So now we're trying to figure out, can the dog keep identifying the stress sample and ignore that same person's baseline sample that was collected, you know, five minutes before the stress sample.

So if that's the case, which we found was that the dogs were actually fantastically good at this,

their average performance. What was their average performance? I can't remember. It was like 93%, I think. Yeah, 93, 94% accuracy.

And that's all the dogs combined and all of their test trials.

So it told us that they could tell the difference just in smell between someone who was when they were at baseline and when they were stressed just from their breath and sweat.

And we were really confident in our conclusions because we controlled the sample collection so strictly. So they weren't, you know, between their baseline and their stress. They didn't eat, they didn't drink anything.

It was within five, six minutes that those two samples were collected. So ideally, nothing else about their physiology had changed other than they got really stressed.

Doing a bunch of math. So we had four dogs in total that did all the test samples that saw the Test samples.

No dog saw. Sorry. The test samples were only ever shown to one dog, and then they were thrown out.

And then one dog saw multiple people's set of samples. So each dog saw multiple people's samples. Samples were never reused.

And then in terms of other controls, we like, cleaned the apparatus between trials and everything as well, so. And for a few of the dogs, we even, like, switched which arm held the test sample.

We were really trying to control. Like,

are they tagging this or is their nose, you know, their saliva in some way tagging the sample? Is that how they're finding it? So we, we really tested them and they were absolutely phenomenal.

We were so impressed, actually. Like, yeah, I. I really didn't expect it to go that well.


Kristi: But can you, can you just. Cause I didn't have a sense in my head so that there's the three arms with the three samples.

The dog is, like, released. And then does the dog go smell each one and then sit in front of one or, you know, do the alert and then get a reward somewhere else or how did it play out?

Catherine: Yeah, yeah, thank you for asking that.

So it was a double blind setup. So the handler who was telling the dog, you know, okay, go smell, smell these samples. That person didn't know where the target odor was.

So they, the dog comes in, they send them to go smell the samples.

There was a second person, you know, in our double blind setup, we had like a screen in the room and someone was standing behind it that sent the dog out.

And then we had a researcher who did know who was behind there but couldn't, you know, wasn't looking at the other person.

And so they, I can't remember the exact details. They figured something out that worked for them that was double blind.

I think it involved them like the handler huddled their arm and, you know, was looking at the dog, and then they would tap their arm if they got it right, and then they could reward the dog and be like, yay.

And reward them.

The room wasn't really set up for us to be able to have people outside of the room and send the dog in.

So we had to have like a partition in the room and send the dog around and have this complicated double blind setup. But yeah, so the dog went in, they smell, they get a treat.

Then the research assistant would go reset the arm so where the target sample was changed each trial.

And then the handler, when that was all ready, would send the dog back out, do its thing, come back,

assistant would go change everything.

So it was a delicate ballet. For sure.

Kristi: And if the dog got it wrong, I know that didn't happen very much, but what happened?

Catherine: Then we just would call them away and just be like, good job. Like, way to go.

Kristi: No treat for you.

Catherine: But, yeah, they didn't get treated.

But. And I have worked with dogs where not getting the treat is. Is, you know, is. Is a form of punishment for them, and they become very sensitive about it. And those ones we just be a lot more careful with, and it might be, well, let's go do something else.

Let's go do something else. And they can get a treat for that.

You know what I mean? To keep their. Their motivation up.

Four dogs that we had were unbelievable. Like, just. They were.

They absolutely loved this. And so it really.

I'm always concerned about that part about, like, do we give them a treat anyways or do we just,

you know, move on and. And. And go for the next one? And.

But these dogs were.

Kristi: The vast majority of dogs I've worked with don't mind a bit of a challenge.

Catherine: Yeah.

Kristi: Sounds like you said. Yeah. So I. I'm personally not worried about having a treat for every trial, but,

Catherine: yeah, I get your point.

Kristi: Absolutely.

Catherine: Yeah. Yeah. I have worked with some that were extremely sensitive, but these ones were like,

yeah, not much phased them. They were just happy to be there. Just happy to be doing a job and getting treats sometimes. And. Yeah, and smelling like.

Kristi: I think dogs like smelling.

Catherine: So, yeah, 100.

Yeah, we had one. It was a lurcher, actually, that it would find the target, it would go up and freeze, and then it's. The tail would just start like,

I'm gonna get a trade.

Sweet. Yeah, they just love it.

Kristi: And then they get. They get that, like, conditioned emotional response. And the next time you're at home and you're like, oh, I'm stressed about something, and your dog's like, yeah,

They go right to the fridge.

Catherine: Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. It was really, really fun study. And I could not be more proud of my students. I mentioned this earlier when we were chatting by email that they. This was all during the pandemic.

Right. And then they just did such a fantastic job of adjusting and keeping up with the training and keeping the owners motivated, keeping the dogs motivated. Like, it just.

Yeah, I'm endlessly proud of them. They did such a good job.

Zazie: It sounds like it. And also, I'm interested that the dogs weren't the kind of dogs that people would associate with working in a scent kind of job as well. Like, you wouldn't expect a lurcher to be the best kind of dog at that.

But they. They did well. So. Yeah, that's really interesting, too.

Catherine: A hundred percent. And we told the owner that. I remember when they volunteered their dog and we said, well, you know, we're. We're absolutely going to try.

We can't guarantee they're going to enjoy this. They're not known for loving repetitive work, but.

Oh, but they. He absolutely loved it.

Yeah, we had a great bunch of little dogs, a little terrier mix and some like a cocker spaniel mix as well that, you know, they love sniffing.

Kristi: But, yeah, the cocker spaniel didn't surprise me for sure. But the other ones, I was like, oh, interesting.

Catherine: Yeah, cocker spaniel is definitely the star of the show. But. But they all did fantastic. Yeah, they loved it.

Kristi: What do you. What do you think the implications are like for ordinary dog guardians for the success?

Catherine: Oh, yeah, yeah, that's a great question.

So part of the rationale for the study as well was, you know, the idea of PTSD service dogs, which are not, you know, your regular companion dog, but this idea that they're not just picking up on your behavior changes, that there's other things going on there.

You know, there are some reports of dogs waking people up when they're sleeping. Maybe their breathing rate changes rapidly or something.

And so we were just trying to provide more supporting evidence that dogs. There's a lot going on here. Dogs are capable of doing this. And it's not just behavior that, you know, there's another layer there that a person can't pick up on necessarily, maybe,

but that dogs can.

For the average dog owner, I mean, I would say, you know, they're so sensitive to us, and this is just another layer on that that they can tell when we don't feel right. And it's not just our behavior that's contributing to their picking up on this.

It can also be odors.

I will say, you know, that some dogs, that is scary for them,

they're not all, you know, trained for this to be exciting and happy and let me go over and interact with them when. When they're feeling unwell, but it's just another piece of information that they. They can pick up on that. And they're extremely sensitive to us. Whether we realize it or not, they're picking up on a lot of stuff.

Zazie: Well, that's been really interesting. I've loved hearing about your research, so thank you for telling us about it. And it is time to move on to our.

Which is always the book section.

So what have you been reading recently that you loved?

Catherine: Sure. So I'm going to give you two. I have a nonfiction that was actually recommended to me by a student of mine and it is a bleak one, I have to say.

It's sad, but extremely informative that you might have read yourselves. It's a bit older now, but the Boy who Was Raised as a Dog by Bruce Perry. And yes, yeah, it is about childhood trauma and how,

you know, how it can shape the development of the brain and how repetitive, predictable, comforting interactions can help improve symptoms of trauma and help children, which I just,

I also work with children and people in, in a psychological setting. I'm not a psychologist, but I. I work as a psychometrist and so I find this absolutely fascinating and I love the neuroscience part of these things of here's how the brain works and here's what happens when things happen to a person.

And part of the reason I love it so much is because it also relates to the work I do with dogs because we're all mammals and our brains are quite similar.

And I really, I always find that the, the work I'm doing with dogs makes me better with people and vice versa. And so I like to,

you know, read about all of those people and dogs and the experiences we go through.

The fiction I'm going to recommend is equally bleak. Unfortunately, I'm much of. I'm a very horror reader and this one that I read this year is The Unworthy, you might have heard of by Augustina Bazterrica.

And it is about. It's very bleak. It's a dystopian type setting where, you know, suffering and control are used to maintain power over people.

However, it also, you know, the storyline involves a romance in a setting where you wouldn't expect it and how important that is for helping change worldview and then ultimately, you know, sustaining people and changing the outcomes.

So it is a very heavy book but very powerful and those are the type I tend to gravitate towards, unfortunately.

But it's one of those that I, you know, you read it and that I've been thinking about it ever since. So I had to. Had to pick that one.

Zazie: I like books that stay with you and I haven't read that one, but I have read the Bruce Perry one and I agree it's very sad,

but also it's very helpful in the explanations and I agree, I think it's very relevant to our work with dogs as well. So thank you for those suggestions. That's great.

And I'm going to put links to the two papers that we've talked about in the show notes.

Kristi: Notes.

Zazie: But if someone wants to know more about you, where should they go?

Catherine: Oh, good question.

You can search me on the Mount Saint Vincent University website or epictails dot ca. There's some info about me there and I can be contacted through either of those. My university email is there and my dog training email are both available on those websites.

Zazie: And I'll put links to those websites in the show notes too. So thank you ever so much for coming to tell us about your research. It's fascinating and I feel like we all should just take a moment to think,

wow, aren't dogs amazing? Because it's just, you know, amazing that they can do this. So that's been really interesting to hear about. Thank you.

Catherine: Yeah. Thank you, Zazie. Thank you, Kristi as well. It's been great. Thank you so much.


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